God and Guns: The Bible's Perspective on Personal Ownership and Use of Weapons, and Related Matters

God's sword (the Word) and ours (the rifle), superimposed over the Bible.(c) 1996, 1997 David C. Treibs, sirdavid@ktc.com

This page contains verse by verse commentary for Colossians 3 - Revelation, detailing what the Bible says about owning and using guns. It also contains Miscellaneous Comments, and Various Arguments and Refutations.

Colossians 3:5
Even though the law is fulfilled there are still things we must do. We
must do our part.
This particular evil we must put away that is within us, part of our
nature, etc. This is a large emphasis in the NT, to put away our own old
man. Also, we are to help our neighbor do the same. The
stay-in-your-home-with-your-religion pietists stop here. And yet also
there is evil outside us, in others, in society, etc that we are also to
deal with.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
we have to work at fulfilling God's will. it's God's will, but we have to work
to fulfill it.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
We must be sure to have the correct attitude and demeanor, not like
Rambo, not loud, proud, menacing, swaggering, aggressive (unduly so,
sometimes you have to be very aggressive to win a fight), etc, but
humbled, quite, etc, like Nehemiah.
11 "do your own business," mind your own business or continue to manage
your responsibilities.
"work with your own hands," can't just be "spiritual," you have to work
and sweat and labor.
12 We can't depend on others to care for us--we can't go around lacking
things and expect others to take care of us, or we might not be able to
walk honestly (like pacifists and others who expect others to fight for
their country, to protect them from criminals, etc) before them that are
without. I suspect this includes anything we might need to carry on our
lives, including protecting ourselves and our families and others. This
is also a good verse against Christians recieving welfare.

1 Timothy 4:5
What "word" is he referring to? OT? His letters? Both?

1 Timothy 4:13
Reading what? OT? His letters? Both?

1 Timothy 5:3-11
Trust God to feed the old and widows and the hungry, but there are specific
things we must do to make God's will come true--if we don't, these people will
suffer, and God's will will be hindered.

Yes, it's God's will that the hungry be fed and yes we should trust him to
provide, but it's up to us to do all we can., and that is how God provides:
through us, not inspite of our inaction. Inaction and unpreparedness do not
equal trusting God. Doing nothing when it's in our power to do so isn't faith
or trust; it's fatalism and simplmindedness. God's will is fulfilled though
our actions, through our hands. We are his body to do his work.

Provide for your own (food) or are worse than an infidel, trust God but still
do our part or suffer the consequences (see Proverbs), also we have an
obligation to meet the physical needs of those we responsible for, if not, we
really bad, if Bible OK's defense, protection is one of those things we are
responsible for providing.

1 Timothy 6:17
Tell the rich not to trust riches but God--same for guns, trust God, but use
them. Use of God given tools.
Notice, he didn't say to dump their riches or give it all to the poor.
He said, don't be high minded. The things of this world are not evil,
all the things Jesus said about rich people notwithstanding, remember,
he also said with God all things are possible (rich enter heaven). With
God's help and lots of humility, we can handle the things of this world.
That includes weapons and other non-gospel related items. We just have
to be careful, because "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye
of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Riches tend to puff up
and make one self-dependent instead of God-dependent. Weapons can do the

2 Timothy 2:24-26
If this is referring to physical conflict it is absolute, because no
exceptions are mentioned (remember, though, to compare scripture with
scripture)--you can't participate in war, self-defense, or if your wife
or daughter or mother is being abused, raped, beaten, etc, you may not
intervene (perhaps also may not intervene to defend unborn babies, which
OR might object to). Otherwise, if the above pacifism isn't true, then
it is because you must take other scriptures into account,and compare
scripture, and then you will have the entire picture, and you will know
that you can be physically aggressive. Also, this scripture does not
negate everything else, else the scriptures are contradictory, and you
are deciding which part is true. Actually, there is a time and a season
for everything.
These verses are discussing the attitude and the job of a servant. He's
not giving him an exhaustive list of everything he is required to do,
which also precludes anything not listed. He doesn't mention anything
about feeding or clothing the hungry, working with his own hands (I Thes
4:11-12) or the other requirements of a bishop/minister, and so there is
no need to have a heart attack if he doesn't mention self-defense.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
The OT I think--see 2 Peter 1:20.
This sounds like the OT, depending on where this book (Tim) was written,
because if Timothy has heard this when he was young, if he was around
Christ's time, it would be the OT.

Hebrews 1:5-6,8-13
OT verses speaking of Christ.

Hebrews 2:6-8
OT verses speaking of Christ.

Hebrews 2:12-13
Point about God's children.

Hebrews 3:7-11
OT point about not forsaking God.

Hebrews 3:15-4:1
OT point about not forsaking God

Hebrews 4:3-8
OT point about God's rest.

Hebrews 5:4-6,10
OT point that God called Christ to suffer and to be a priest for us.

Hebrews 6:13-15
OT example of God's promises.

Hebrews 7:1
Melchisedec blessed Abraham after he slaughtered the kings and received
a tithe from the spoil--if it were bloody money he would not have--and
Melchisedec was God (v.3). It was as if to say, way to go, bud, knock'em
When Melchesedec met him, it was as when a king or the people go out
joyfully to meet a returning victorious general, and the general
generously bestows some of the booty on those he favors.
Abraham had armed men who were trained privately and armed privately and
organized privately and went out and did their own thing simply because
there was a need at hand and they were prepared to handle it--Abraham
forsaw the evil and prepared for it, and then when he saw the need, he

Hebrews 6:20-7:18
Explaining Christ's work by using the OT.

Hebrews 8:5
OT scripture to prove that God has a tabernacle in heaven.

Hebrews 8:8-13
OT covenant is flawed and will be replaced, but the OT is not passed

Hebrews 9:2-15
Christ's covenant was much better and cleansed us much deeper--all the
way--than the old.

Hebrews 9:22
This is taken to be a truth expounded on the OT

Hebrews 9:16-17
The point.

Hebrews 9:18-22
The proof for the point--from the OT (It is important to remember that
he was talking to Jews, and naturally he would use whatever they would
accept, meaning their scriptures, however, that doesn't mean those
scriptures weren't valid, as the poems of those heathens where-ever they
were when Paul was trying to make a point about God, I think it was
about creation or about the unknown God.

Hebrews 9:27
It was appointed in Gen 3:19--a reference to the OT that is still

Hebrews 10:7
The book is the OT.

Hebrews 10:8-9
An OT quote.

Hebrews 10:14-17
Uses the OT to prove that Christ's work is forever. (Naturally, the
whole Bible is about Christ, and just because something about Christ is
from the OT, that doesn't mean that the rest of the OT is also just as
pertinent. YOu'd do well to not use OT references to Christ that are
valid as proof that the rest is valid. Best focus on other evidences,
such as references to the "scriptures" and to the fathers and so on that
are not directly connected to Christ.)

Hebrews 10:30-31
31 Is the point, 30 is the proof taken from the OT.

Hebrews 10:1-17
The law was the shadow of things to come, in that Christ would do away
with sin once and forever.

Hebrews 10:18-25
Because of the work of Christ, which has led us into the holy of Holies,
we can boldly come before God, therefore let us be pure and do what's

Hebrews 10:26-31
Don't sin after coming to know Christ, or else--the OT people had it
bad, we have it worse.

Hebrews 11:1-40
All those named throughout it, and then 11:33-40 lists all the things
they did--some fought, some did not, but they did what they did through
faith (33), some escaped, some didn't try to escape, some were
delivered, some were not (35).
Each one of them was different in what they did and what happened to
them, but God accepted them because they acted in faith and did not
displease God in what they did, at least in the deeds God blessed.
the elders, Abel, Enoch, he that cometh to God, Noah, Abraham, Sarah,
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Moses' parents, walls of Jerico (Joshua and
Israel), Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the
Militant ones:
Abraham, Joshua, Moses (commander in chief who sent them out on several
missions, btw, he was the meekest man ever), Gideon, Samson, David,
Barak (general who fought with Sisera when Jael killed Sis), Jephthah.
Their sins are not commended, but the righteousness they committed in
faith is. They did some doosers. Jephthah sacrificed his daughter,
Gideon committed idolatry, Sampson fornicated, David adulterated.
33 The listed deeds refer to all the above names.
33-39 This is a brief run through of the rest of the OT.
33 "stopped the mouths of lions" Sampson, David, Daniel
34 "Quenched the violence of fire" Daniel's friends (law breakers)
"were made strong" Nehemiah, Esther, etc
37 the prophets?
"escaped" low level of resistance
"were made strong"
"waxed valiant" high level of resistance
"turned...armies" (several did this)
"not accepting deliverance" lower still level of resistance--not bowing
but not escaping
Hebrews 11:34
Valiant in fight, referring to some OT heros who were vailant warriors like
David, Hezekiah, Josiah, Joshua to war used their own weapons, they were
faithful while using weapons and killing, they trusted God while using weapons
and killing. Not sure which of these warriors Hebrews' author commends but
whoever, it's clear the NT doesn't condemn armed conflict and doesn't uplife,
uphold, glorify, praise pacifism.
Daniel's friends, ?, ?, many warriors in the OT did this, and they were
praised for fighting and destroying the enemy, and destroying the invading
armies. Apparently God applauds those who fight with the bad guys valiantly,
and he applauds those who stop the wicked from harming his people, as in he
would applaud a father or mother for attacking a robber to protect the

Hebrews 12:5
OT verse to remain faithful and despise not God's chastening.

James 2:8
The scripture = OT.
Jesus also quoted this.

James 2:21,23-26
Refers to OT example to prove NT principle about faith.
26 "Faith without works is dead;" I used this quote in several

James 4:1-2
Wars and fighting come from lust--not sure if literal or figurative, but
agrees with what Jesus said, and James didn't say wars and fightings come from
guns. He didn't say put away your weapons (guns), he said put away your lust.
Of course, he also didn't say put away your porno.
It is also indicated that because their motives were unpure, so were
their deeds based on them, because their deeds were attempts to fulfill
their evil lusts. But that doesn't mean that wars and fighting are
always bad, else God is schitzophrenic, because he just finished in Heb
11 commending many warriors. But, if we war and fight for lust or other
sin's sake, we _will_ be wrong. If we want the big R so we can pillage
and rape and do whatever we want, then God condemns that motive and the
actions to fulfill it.

James 4:5-6
OT scripture to prove NT point about lust, envy, pride, and

James 4:8-10
Are any of these OT verses?

James 5:6
An example of someone who doesn't resist evil.
We know of many OT and several NT verses where people, including Jesus
in one instance, resisted being condemned, and where NT people resisted
being killed at various levels (fleeing Jerusalem; hiding; Paul escaped,
offered a legal defense, used his Roman citizenship, etc).

James 5:10-11
OT examples to follow in patience and endurance.

James 5:17-18
OT example of praying.

1 Peter 1:10-12
The prophets--apparently they are not completely irrelevant even to "the
strangers" (v.1), ie non-Jews, which some might be led to argue that
because of what Paul said for the non-Jews to follow were relatively few
requirements--no fornication, no blood, nothing strangled, and some
might say that precluded them from the rest of the OT, including
the parts wherein fighting and weapons are mentioned.

1 Peter 1:15-16
Be holy, even as it is written in the OT--a commandment, given, and
recall, when the law was given, which they still must follow--perhaps
every example and commandment of the OT is not invalidated by Christ.
But also remember the requirements of the Gentiles, as noted in I Pet
1:10-12. I think Peter was writing to Jews, but to me that is
irrelevant, God has broken the wall between the outer and inner court (?
is that accurate?) between Gentiles and Jews.

1 Peter 1:19
A lamb--OT allusion.

1 Peter 1:25
Semi-quote of OT verse? Is 40:8

1 Peter 2:6
The scripture--about Christ.

1 Peter 2:23
Another side of the coin.
He suffered in a non-resistant manner, and spoke up only once or twice.
Remember that Paul resisted more, although he too suffered quite a bit
anyway. He resisted to the extent that he effectively could (sometimes
illegally, I think, in escaping, etc) and what he could not stop, he
accepted and used as suffering for Christ and for God's glory. This is a
good example for us to follow. In our country, our law (Dec of Ind,
Const, etc) enumerates for us more rights than most countries have to
resist evil, even by force, although everyone has this right from God,
but few have it enshrined in their law.

1 Peter 3:13-18
God will help you, but if you do suffer for righteousness sake, don't
be troubled, but be ready to answer, and you are in good company,
because Christ also suffered.
Here should be our attitude toward suffering, if we can't stop it or
avoid it. Actually, there's quite a bit of evil that cannot be stopped
by force, and we might have to take it with grace, naturally, doing all
we can to stop it or dampen its effects.
1 Our attitude toward suffering--sometimes we can't escape it and we
just have to take it.
2 When you resist, be sure lust is not involved--lust to do what you
want (when the big R hits), to have power, etc.

1 Peter 4:1-4
Further explanation of Christ's suffering, and for the reason to put
away sin, and the lust of the flesh, which we should also do.

1 Peter 4:14-16
Reproach--not physical abuse. But there are plenty of examples of
physical abuse.

1 Peter 4:19
Could be anything. Here's our attitude, not that we don't have to take
it or that we are mad at God for allowing it or we think life or God is
unfair, or why me, or I don't have to take this, we do the best we can
and commend ourselves to God, as did those in Heb 11 who weren't quite
so successful as Abraham or David or Daniel, and were sawn asunder,

1 Peter 5:5
Our attitude--no Rambo--the mailed, bended knee of the humbled

2 Peter 1:17-21
The OT scriptures are a more sure witness than God's voice from
There is 1 interpretation of scripture--God's version--and it is
our responsibility to find it, to search the scriptures.
It doesn't matter what we feel, or, like Nan said, God hasn't given her
peace about guns. Sorry, your feelings are irrelevant--God's word,
properly interpreted (scripture compared with scripture) is what

2 Peter 2:4-9
Using OT scriptures to make points about God destroying those who do not
follow the truth (2-4) and (9) God knows how to deliver the just.

2 Peter 2:14-16
Example of evil people from the OT.
Gun toting Libertarians who love the Constitution but not God's word or
morals better take heed--destruction and tyranny are nipping at their

2 Peter 3:4-6
Refers to OT (creation and the flood).

2 Peter 3:13
OT promise that we Christians await (?).

1 John 3:5
Why he came--we can't be like him in every aspect.

3 John 1:5
You do faithfully whatever you do both to brothers and strangers--we
can't just help the brethren and forget the rest--we owe it equally to
our neighbors (as the Samaritan).

Jude 1:14-15
Is this in the OT? In any event, it is pre-grace truth that is quoted as
still being true.

Revelation 2:20
It was legal for Jezebel to seduce Christians, but God was angry w/
Christians for not interfering with Jezebel's notions.
On the other hand, he was pleased with what Jehu did--which was probably
illegal. I don't know if the queen was also considered "the anointed" as
was the king.

Revelation 6:2
God is militant.

Revelation 6:4
The devil's armies have swords. That means the good, the bad, and the ugly are
armed, and the only complaint is that nobody has killed off all the wicked,
not that everyone needs to turn in their weapons to the king or the

Revelation 12:7-9
As long as there is evil, even in a perfect place like heaven, there
will be war because the evil will seek to overthrow and subdue and spoil
and sullen the good, but the good will resist, fight, and throw off the
evil, and will fight until evil is totally defeated and unable to do
anything. We should do like the angels--do the best we can to run it off
so there is no place for it, and remove it from our realm or sphere of
influence to the furtherest extent we are able.
The war is now transferred to the earth.

Revelation 12:17
The devil seeks out the good (and perhaps also the innocent, helpless,
etc?) to war against it.
There will never be peace on earth as long as the devil is around.

Revelation 13:10
Apparently talking about the beast (13:1) who would make war against the
saints and prevail against them (v. 7). Doesn't necessarily mean that all
those who use a sword will be killed with a sword.
The patience of the saints--what they can hang on to in the darkest
hours, and their faith, what they can trust in, is that the beast who
captures them will himself someday be led captive, and the beast who
kills them all the day long will be himself one day killed with the

Revelation 13:7,15
Same as 12:17?
*********Following verses demonstrate immediately following pt*******
God has not always and will not always give us a successful defense or
even an escape--in the end he will (?) give the devil free reign to kill
us as he pleases (?) (according to JV McGee).
God will not always rescue us nor give us victory.

Revelation 6:9-10
These are calling for vengeance against the ungodly--guess it couldn't be
that bad (they are asking God to do it, mind you, but then again, we are
God's hands down here, eh?, although, we don't really want to be
involved in judging people, and end up on the receiving end ourselves
for the same reasons those who had a hand in judging Israel also ended
up on the receiving end for what they did).

Revelation 11:3-7
God will protect these for awhile, and then will stop--perhaps God will
do that with us--protect us while we are doing his work, and then when
we are finished, he will remove his protection. Is that perhaps what he
did with Josiah?

Revelation 12:3-4,6
God helped the woman escape.

Revelation 12:11
God helped them, or at least lent them his power, but they did not
always succeed, or more specifically, they did not succeed in remaining
alive, doubtless their mission was successful.

Revelation 13:7
The beast makes war, and overcomes the saints. Doesn't say if they
resist or not, but if they have to be overcome, that implies they are
doing something, at least they are trying to escape. I should think if
he makes war, then they resist, but he wins, but it doesn't say if that
involves physical fighting. I don't think it means spiritually, because
then they would go to the devil's side, or at least quit working for
Christ's side, which is not an option and is not possible.
Or, spiritually could be in the Frank Peretti sense, all their prayers
and spiritual efforts are overcome, and the angels don't win this one,
and the dark cloud triumphs, and the evil plot is unstoppable.
In any event, the beast is a physical creature, and conducts war, which
probably at least to some extent involves physical action, and so it
might follow that the resistance the saints offer is physical
(especially since he physically kills multitudes of them) to some
extent, even if it's only the lowest levels of resistance--not giving in
to his evil wishes to reject Christ, or escaping.
I think the beast does more than just pray to the devil and send him
running around, and the saints do more than just pray to God and invoke
his power.

Revelation 13:16-17
Keeps believers from buying and selling. God allows him to do this to

Revelation 13:10,14:9-12
The saints will endure suffering (Matthew 26:52) because they will remember
several things: the beast and those who destroy Christians will likewise
die (13:10), and, God's wrath will be poured out upon those who turn
from God.

Revelation 16:6,17:6,18:24,19:2,18:20
God will have to avenge this one.

Revelation 19:16,19-21
Only Christ can win this one.

Revelation 20:4
Awful lot of saints defeated in the war here. No victory in this one for
us on the physical side. Any victories will be treasures in heaven, no
fruits of victory will be evident on earth. If there's any victory at
all in any earthly sense it might be to be a witness to the lost.
The "victorious life" people will have a hard time here, as will anyone
who thinks God will protect them all the time, as will anyone who thinks
God will allow them to fight successfully all the time.

Revelation 20:7-9
God fights this one.

Revelation 21:7
That could mean overcome by being killed for not going with the devil's
*************************end point started

Revelation 22:18-19
Be careful. If what I'm saying is adding, woe is me, but if anyone says
this is not true, and it is (guns, etc) you are taking away from what is
in the book, and whatever it means, God will do it to you (remove your
name), so be careful not to jump on any particular bandwagon, and see
who has some or all of the truth.
Nations and kings must do such and such things to please God, we
constitute the nation and the king, and by doing nothing we are doing
wrong or allowing wrong, which is also wrong.


Miscellaneous Comments

If you condemn personal self-defense (because use of force is involved) must
also condemn national defense, because both involve use of force to defend.
Unless you build some sort of case that nations have the right to self-defense
but individuals don't; don't think I ever heard that one. Check out the
Sunday school lesson on war, wherein they say gov'ts may bear (Rom 13)
the sword but not individuals.

Trust God for food, but work, go to store, prepare food. Healing: trust God,
but go to doctor, birth babies at hospital, use Tylenol instead of trusting
God in the sense that you do nothing and excuse that as

Holy Spirit convicts sinners, no one can come to God unless he draws them,
everyone already has a witness within themselves (rom 1) and will be condemned
even if they are never told and have the chance to be saved without being
told, but we still tell them, missionaries do all in their power, trust God to
give the increase.

We must defend other innocents, if we don't stand up, they will be

Don't trust the weapon, make it a demi-god like the movies do or a demi-devil
like the liberals and the media do.

If feelings conflict with the Bible, feelings are wrong. If think God is
telling something conflicting with the word, thinking is wrong, because if
even an angel tells you something contrary to the Bible, you aren't to heed
them, don't remove or add one jot or tittle; God's word stands above all other
sources--our will or thoughts or biases or impressions or feelings or what
others say including angels and visions.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, but when
those principalities attack through the flesh, we must defend accordingly,
when they attack through gov't, we must counter through gov't--exert our
power, and meet every attack of the enemy on that level (Peter Spencer,
CrossCurrents, about Oct 8, 92).

Good and innocence has the inherent, God given right to triumph and protect
itself from evil, as long as it does no evil in so doing.

We have the priviledge of using weapons and lethal force.

Take pleasure in the Lord's work and then he will prosper you in the other
things you do--as a nation, the economy will improve, presumably also their
defenses will improve, the criminals won't prosper.

Violence is not evil. as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men (is
that in the context of friendship, or physical conflict).

Evil comes from the heart, not from objects, environment, etc; sin is a heart
condition not environment (remember arguments against porno, it is sinful in
itself, weapons are not, it is designed to produce lust--which is a sin in
itself, weapons can be used for good or bad).
Pornography is a display of nakedness, which is sinful already. The
purpose is to inspire lust, which is also wrong. Only in marriage are
you able to look upon the nakedness of someone, and then it is

Self defense is not wrong but a God given right and

Right and wrong, sin and innocence, good and evil are absolute; right is
defensible against wrong by any Biblical means including violence.

Christians goof on the gun issue when they fail to distinguish between
trusting in guns and using them.

Paul's tent sewing--he did what he had to do to make it in the world
even while being a full time missionary--in our time what have to do
quite a few things to make it, and we can still do these as actions
supporting the spread of the gospel.

Cause Effect.
If you don't repair the walls and trim the vines and plow and sow, you
will have a run down vineyard--be called a sloth--not a spiritual person
because you expected God to do the work--same for hay field, even though
not specifically mentioned hay--same for all other areas of life.
This tells us a few thougs--we live in a cause effect world--God expects
us to deal with things on those things' level--both responsive and
We live in a physical world where cause and effect are the general
rule--one thing causes another. Our physicalness dictates we behave in
certain ways. We have to plant in planting time or we will starve. We
have to come out of the rain or we will be wet and cold and could
contract sickness. If we don't eat properly or eat the wrong stuff or
improper quantities we will become ill, weak, or die.
Because of sin, bad things happen, earthquakes, droughts, tornadoes,
mudslides, volcanos, etc.--each of these and others require certain
types of reactive and preventative measures (see Pvbs) for us to
There are many threats to our existence which we must deal with by
appropriate measures--over or under doing it will cause us not to
survive or will waste valuble energy and resources that we will need for
other endeavors.

Results of Our Efforts are Temporary--We Must never Slacken our Work.
The land had rest 40 (xx) years...while (yy) was alive--the results are
only temporary, if at all, and the victories will be limited in the
scope of area, effectiveness, length of time it lasts, # of people
helped, nevertheless, we are called to do it because it is right, not
because of the assurance of any particular results. You might succeed
today only to see the results turned around tomorrow, or to end up a
victim as much as those we are trying to help.

Our Attitude.
Pp 2:3
No vain glory, no strife; don't do what you for vain glory--not to draw
attention, not to build a name--just be God's servant and to quietly do
his work for his blessings and his rewards and not necessarily for any
recognition or reward from anyone else--not for strife--might have
strife heaped on us, but don't have a strife or belligerant attitude.
Pp 2:14
No mumering or complaining.
Pp 2:15
Be blameless and harmless and unrebukable--keep a clean heart and a
clean vocabulary, a clean life.

Egypt had 7 good years and 7 bad years. The 7 good years was
specifically designed by God to allow Joseph to prepare for the famine.
The only really noteworthy thing there was that God told him when the
bad was going to happen and how to prepare for it.
We aren't quite able to forsee what will happen in the future, but we
can still take advantage of present circumstances to prepare what could
possibly happen in the future, and we can look at the past to see what
others have had to face and what they needed to prepare for it, and then
we can do similarly.

More examples of the reap/sow, cause/effect, physical nature of the
universe and that God _expects_ us to live, prepare, and respond
accordingly--Jesus himself acknowledged this when he said build your
house on a rock and not sand and if you build on sand "great will be the
ruin of it," not, God will keep you(r house) from falling, or he will
keep you safe, etc. Also Proverbs(?), look diligently to the state of
your flocks, etc.

It is not that bad, because good will come of it. God will return
sooner; an indirect way we can indirectly control the return of
Christ--allowing more and more evil--proper attitude is Pvb 24:11 ("if
thou forbear to deliver")--their blood is on our hands and on our nation
and we will reap the fruit of their sins they sow).
William N. Podaris of Tabernacle of God in North Carolina said the
Baptist Association or some such group of religious folks wanted his
help to close down strip joints or whatever sin houses they were, but he
said, no, let them build a whole bunch of them and fill the town with
them, because then Christ would come sooner, or that would mean Christ
would come soon.
I don't think God has a murder quotient or sin quotient that, when it's
filled, he will return. He will return at the "appointed day." If there
are more murders and strip joints, it is because we allowed them, and it
has nothing to do with Christ's return.
The premise is to do evil that good may come, or slightly modified, let
us allow evil that good (Christ's return) may come, or at least don't be
alarmed by it (and perhaps do something about it).
(do evil) (good)
Let us _________________ that ________________ may come.
sin God forgive sin
Do we decide between "God is able to work things out for good" and "let
us do evil that good may come." Is this to say, sin isn't all that bad
because God will bring something good out of it, or is it so horribly
evil that Jesus had to die for it, but in spite of the terribleness of
it, God can bring something good of it. This is a tribute to God's
incredible power and grace, not to the weakness of sin's total
destructiveness and evilness. Our question is then, do we stop it, or
do we allow it.
Work it out for good...
It isn't that bad,
so why have a cow?

It killed Jesus, it kills us,
sends billions of people to hell,
destroys nations, brought the curse
upon the earth and all humanity
A preacher or teacher might respond that he doesn't teach passivity in
the face of tyranny or doing nothing in the face of evil or inaction or
practicing tolerance (by doing nothing) while speaking against it, but
then every time or most of the time the subject of evil comes up, is his
response, well, all the sooner Christ will come, or, it's the end times
and what else do you expect, or, it's going to happen no matter what
because it's the end times, or whatever, or is it, we are guilty of
blood and we must stand against and stop this evil, and our inactivity
is complicity and our silent ascent and consent, and our nation will
suffer the consequences of our sins, and Quit you like men, and, Let us
fight for our nation and our families and our houses, and let God do
what seemeth good to him.
Christ's return is so soon, no use to do anything (it won't do any good,
it won't have any effect, we don't have time to accomplish anything, God
has given the devil the OK to do whatever he wants, including nullify
whatever we do)--blessed is the servant he finds working when he
returns, be salt and light, occupy till I come, put away the evil from
you, when the righteous rule, the people rejoice, when the wicked rule,
the people mourn, when the wicked perish, there is shouting, the
slothful and evil servant hides his talent in the ground, ie does
nothing with what he has and what he can do, the unproductive tree will
be hewn down, etc.
Sin nailed Jesus to the cross, but when we sin, God can bring something
good out of it, but that doesn't mean the sin isn't all that bad and we
don't have to worry too much about avoiding or shunning it because God
can bring good out of it (Rom 7, should we sin that grace may about? God
forbid!), and where sin abounds, grace does much more abound, so to fill
our lives and our world with God's grace, fill both with sin. Then we
can all experience God's grace to the fullest! Right? Wrong!!! "The fear
of the Lord is to HATE evil," not practice it or allow it: abortion,
socialism, gun control, etc are all sin, violate God's principles, etc.
--We are commanded to stop what we wisely can ("rescue," put away evil")
--God will judge what is not stopped, we will reap the consequences of
--God's grace is sufficient for what we cannot stop (See Lamentations
last chapter to see God's grace in action, and decide if that's
what you want for you and yours and our nation.)

Our highest priority in life is not to avoid tribulation--it isn't
always bad and we have to be careful in postulating self-defense that we
don't begin to declare war on everything and everyone who might cause us
problems. Persecutions and tribulations are part of being a Christian,
and we have to know and have descernment when to fight and at what level
to resist.


for sirdragonslayer@juno.com; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:30:06 -0500
a publication of Reformation II Ministries

Internet edition, issue R961030 - A

Editor: Dan Gibson
Production: Jim Ketchum
Copy Editor: Melanie Termorshuizen

***** CONTENTS ******

ARTICLE . . . . . . . . . . . Dispensationalism -- The Promises of God


Don Codling Labels Article "Smelly"

I found interesting your article, "The choice close", and agreed with
its general thrust - that we should not vote for unrighteousness even when
its the best short term choice of those offered.
HOWEVER, there are a couple of assumptions in it that definitely need
some biblical reforming.


Then there is the assumption that unrestricted access to weapons is a
Christian plank item. I'm not a gun control advocate, but I think Christians
need to recognize points at which their views go beyond things mandate in
Scripture. (I would suggest that all emphasis on RIGHTS goes beyond what
Scripture says, and probably is contrary to Scripture.) You say of Dole,
"obviously, if he is not for those items, he cannot be called pro-family".
Among "those items" seems to be freedom to own assault weapons. Where in the
Bible are we taught that support for the family requires support of a "right"
to own weapons whose only use is to blast people? I know that the
constitutional right to bear weapons hits a deep chord in American emotions.
But you are making a very loud claim to be a citizen of Christ's kingdom, not
just a citizen of the U.S. That means you have to set aside the emotional
ties of U.S. history, in favour of the true "God's country". In Christ's
kingdom, nothing but the strictest honesty will do.

Dan Gibson responds:

The primary purpose of the article "Choice Close" was to show that
American voters, and more particularly, Christian voters, are being
systematically lied to by both Dole and "Christian" organizations that
endorse him. Therefore, when Dole claims to be for American sovereignty,
ending abortion, lower taxes, gun rights, etc. a look at his voting record
clearly shows otherwise. However, you have attributed beliefs to me that I do
not hold and I believe you may have some errant views as to the what the
Bible (and common sense) says about these issues as well.


You also appear to take the position that for a nation or an individual
to seek its own welfare and security is somehow unChristian. However,
stewardship begins with the individual and has its root in self-defense,
since every creature is ordained to defend itself. Even tiny creatures have
claws, teeth and other standard equipment with which to defend itself or
flee. And while animals seek their own defense by God given instinct, men
have the added ability to ponder these concepts in their minds. The depraved
mind, bent on its own destruction, would deny the use of means for
self-defense, but no sane person could. Can we condemn the woman who kicks,
scratches or even shoots a would-be rapist?

Furthermore, unlike animals, men design and make use of tools. Weapons
are tools. And as every man has a duty and obligation to care for the life
God has given him, it follows that he may use tools to defend himself.
Self-defense is *not* an "American" concept; it is as basic, natural and as
good as life itself. It simply happens that tyrants, who rule by force rather
than the rule of law, *always* hate the thought of weapons in the hands of
those they terrorize.

In Frederic Bastiat's (1801-1858) classic treatise "The Law" we read:
"We hold from God the gift which includes all others. This gift is life. .
.But life cannot maintain itself alone. The Creator of life has entrusted us
with the responsibility of *preserving*, developing, and perfecting it...
Each of us has a natural right -- from God -- to defend his person, his
liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life,
and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the
preservation of the other two... If every person has the right to defend --
even by *force* -- his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows
that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to
protect these rights constantly." (emphasis mine)

Bastiat was French, not American, but he would have thought one insane
that said that *some* guns should be illegal because they could be used to
kill men. Of course weapons can be used to kill. The Bible is filled with the
call for men to defend themselves, their families and their neighbors. And
should we say "But that's the Old Testament!" (as if it mattered) then the
New Testament can easilly be consulted as well. When Peter pulled his sword
to defend Jesus we do not hear Jesus say "Peter, where did you obtain that
assault weapon?!" Granted, Peter was wrong in the circumstance (Jesus, for
our sake, wanted to give His life) but not in principle. But we get a glimpse
into the customs of these men from this incident: they were not a band of
defenseless wimps as they are so often portrayed. Was it not our Lord who
said "...and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."?
(Luke 22:36) Regardless, somehow liberal thinkers proclaims that, in some
mysterious way, if people and nations are defensless, they will be safer.
They then proceed to disarm everyone in hopes that corrupt and immoral men
will comply as well, and then there will be "peace on

Of course, the fact that people may properly own the means of their
defense, does not give them the right to use those means to do others harm.
Obviously, that would not be biblical. Some others would say, "Only the
police (government) should have guns!" But apart from the fact that such
condition leads inevitably to tyranny, it also has not, and cannot, work.
Check, for instance, the statistical probability that a policeman will
*prevent* a crime from occuring. Take rape, for instance: less than 1% of
rapists are aprehended during the commission of their crime. Rather, the
policeman investigates the crime *after the fact* and attempts to apprehend
the offender. Little help there for the victim.

To return, the liberal dream of one-world government over defenseless
people is just that -- a dream. God has said that there will be *one*
government, but it will not be the heaven-on-earth envisioned by
utopia-promoting tyrant wannabes who openly defy God and arrange societies
according to their own thoughts. And those candidates that advocate such
programs as Bob Dole has supported, are not friends of the family, since they
have spent their careers working against the family's most basic interests as
well as the will of the God who ordained families and government.


[DELIVERED] (Mode: Normal)
Message # 1019 - Wed Oct 31 08:55:47 1990

From: NANETTE NEWELL (Teddy, Kimber)
Subject: guns
A reply to # 986
I don't know what the Bible says about guns ........I know that in my
heart...that God has not given me peace about guns in the real world....
I don't have any problem with guns for killing animals...that we need for
food...ie. deer....birds....whatever..... I think that they are fine...
feel like this was all a part of God's plan of provision for us.....
I do have a problem with guns in our homes, the Bible says thou shalt not
kill........ I believe this goes for abortion......capital punishment......or
self defense.......
I believe that God is the giver and taker of life....
I believe that He is the judge......
I believe that He is my deliverer from all evil (or harm that may come).
I believe in my gaurdian angels that God has provided to watch over me.
I trust in His love for me that it is perfect! and that He will take care
of me...He called me to minister peace...and encouragement....I believe also
that He has started a work......and that He will complete it......
I do not think that God needs guns to defend His children......
Well....there is my heart....take and keep it!.... :)
God Bless You.... and thanks again for all you have

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(c) November 4, 1995, May 31, 1996 David C. Treibs. All rights reserved.