God and Guns: The Bible's Perspective on Personal Ownership and Use of Weapons, and Related Matters
(c) 1996, 1997 David C. Treibs, firstname.lastname@example.org
This page contains verse by verse commentary for Jeremiah 21 - Ezekiel 14, detailing what the Bible says about owning and using guns.
4 Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn
back the weapons of war that [are] in your hands, wherewith
ye fight against the king of Babylon, and [against] the
Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will
assemble them into the midst of this city.
5 And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched
hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and
in great wrath.
6 And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man
and beast: they shall die of a great pestilence.
7 And afterward, saith the LORD, I will deliver Zedekiah
king of Judah, and his servants, and the people, and such as
are left in this city from the pestilence, from the sword,
and from the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of
Babylon, and into the hand of their enemies, and into the
hand of those that seek their life: and he shall smite them
with the edge of the sword; he shall not spare them, neither
have pity, nor have mercy.
8. And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the
LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way
9 He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and
by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth out,
and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall
live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey.
10 For I have set my face against this city for evil, and
not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the
hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.
11 And touching the house of the king of Judah, [say],
Hear ye the word of the LORD;
12 O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment
in the morning, and deliver [him that is] spoiled out of the
hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and
burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your
13 Behold, I [am] against thee, O inhabitant of the
valley, [and] rock of the plain, saith the LORD; which say,
Who shall come down against us? or who shall enter into our
14 But I will punish you according to the fruit of your
doings, saith the LORD: and I will kindle a fire in the
forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about
4-5 When God is against you, your weapons will be worthless, therefore,
make sure God is on your side.
7 Maybe "those that seek their life" is the same as the enemy, just
another way to say it.
11-12 Zedekiah was king of Judah who rebelled against the
Chaldeans--because he was evil--God allowed him to do something to be
wiped out, and/or didn't help him win in his struggle, see 2 Kings 23 or
In the midst of all this judgment God tells the house of David to:
execute judgment and deliver the oppressed out of the spoiler, not even
in the midst of God's fiercest judgment are we free to stop protecting
the helpless and oppressed. This was (see 2 Kings) after God had sent
Babylon once and wiped them out, then Zedekiah rebelled and they were
doubly wiped out and destroyed.
Of course, all the good or neutral people who wanted nothing to do with
Zed's rebellion also suffered and were slaughtered, which says something
for being sure good leaders are in power, so you don't suffer from their
evil, which DOES happen. The innocent suffer from the wicked, even if
the wicked don't do it with their own hands. This is more evidence that
sin destroys the innocent, and the death that it brings forth harms not
only those directly involved in the sin, but also those who have nothing
to do with it whatsoever. That's why children suffer.
If you don't deliver from the oppressor, God will wipe you out. It
doesn't say to stop oppressing, as if to say they were doing it
(although many were), it says stop the oppressor, meaning they weren't
doing it, but they were still responsible to protect the oppressed, to
stop the oppressor, to force their morality on the wicked. If they
didn't, God would punish them. It was the sin of omission, not
commission. Doing nothing to defend the oppressed is just as bad as
being the oppressor. It IS being the oppressor, indirectly. And, do it
in the morning, ASAP, the first thing you do. Make it a priority. "The
evil of your doings" seems to refer to not rescuing the innocent.
4 Weapons aren't enough--we need God!
12 "execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled"
This is the repentence that I have called (Kinda like the fast that
God called, to break yokes, etc)
"lest my fury go out like fire"
If we don't put action to our prayers and faith and repentence, it won't
help. God's fury will be turned against us--faith without works is dead.
REPENTENCE AND RESCUING--they always go hand in hand.
Deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor.
3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and
righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of
the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the
stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed
innocent blood in this place.
4 For if ye do this thing indeed, then shall there enter
in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne
of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his
servants, and his people.
5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself,
saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.
Same as above, 2 commands: First listed--deliver the spoiled. Second:
don't be a spoiler.
The stranger, fatherless, widow, and the innocent we better rescue, and
also not touch them ourselves. If we do these things, God will bless us,
if not, he will wipe us out.
--The innocent are destroyed.
--We must rescue them.
--We must not harm the innocent.
If we don't do BOTH, we will become a desolation. Some people say, hey,
I don't hurt anyone, I'm a good person; but they don't do the first
part, which is to rescue the oppressed. It's also important to note that
while we are rescuing the spoiled, we must be careful not to do violence
to the stranger, etc. That's the same as doing no evil but not
rescuing--both bring about the harm and destruction of the innocent at
7 And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one
with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars,
and cast [them] into the fire.
The armed wicked...not to be disarmed, but put away and destroyed and
removed--like God was going to do to Israel (** star pointing to
13 Woe unto him that buildeth his house by
unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; [that] useth his
neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for
14 That saith, I will build me a wide house and large
chambers, and cutteth him out windows; and [it is] cieled
with cedar, and painted with vermilion.
15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest [thyself] in
cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and
justice, [and] then [it was] well with him?
16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then [it
was] well [with him: was] not this to know me? saith the
17 But thine eyes and thine heart [are] not but for thy
covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for
oppression, and for violence, to do [it].
18 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the
son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him,
[saying], Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not
lament for him, [saying], Ah lord! or, Ah his glory!
19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ass, drawn and
cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.
21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; [but] thou saidst,
I will not hear. This [hath been] thy manner from thy youth,
that thou obeyedst not my voice.
I think this is a warning to the king--"woe to him" is woe to the king.
13-14 Josiah reigned because he (15) did judgment and justice (as in the
previous passage) to the poor and helpless (15-16).
16 To take up the cause of the poor and needy is to know God. The
liberals know that, but don't have the slightest idea how to help the
poor. They end up making things worse, because they do not apply God's
principles to the situations, and because they tend to want power from
the help they give.
17 But, unlike Josiah, this king oppresses, is violent, sheds innocent
The innocent are destroyed.
16 "then it was well with him"
After you judge the cause of the poor and needy, then it will be well
with you. Action comes first, then God will bless. Don't expect God to
turn around the nation first and then you will start doing what's right.
The cost of doing what's right might be high, since the poor are being
oppressed by the wicked because the nation is full of wicked people, and
we have to fight against all those wicked people, and that might not be
17 Defines the wicked and wicked behavior--what they do is for the
purpose of gratifying and accumulating for themselves. They shed
_innocent_ blood, they oppress, and in the above context, they are
violent. It is like David's "evil man"--the violence he commits is
designed to fulfill his covetousness, to shed innocent blood, and to
oppress (likely by preying on others, including us and the poor). We can
see that this is violence by a wicked person to accomplish wicked ends,
not righteous violence to accomplish righteous ends.
9 Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the
covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods,
and served them.
Not because they didn't disarm the wicked or sign a UN treaty
outlawing nations from having weapons.
Don't contradict yourself--don't say it's repentance and weapons that
are good, but not evil and weapons that are bad.
It's not evil and weapons, but evil.
It is, good repentance and weapons, not just good repentance.
or if you do, justify it. (huh?)
Actually I think it's righteousness and righteous deeds (Jer 22:3), and
in doing righteous deeds, we need weapons, wisdom, etc to do the job.
Doing evil does not require weapons, but doing good does require them
Not really. We have to make due with what we have, and if we have none,
too bad, we have to rescue, etc anyway.
Doing evil with weapons does not make them bad, doing good with weapons
does not make them good.
It's not that the goodness or badness of them depends on who uses them
for what, perhaps it is they are tools--tools for good that can be used
also for evil (?)
17 But thine eyes and thine heart [are] not but for thy
covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for
oppression, and for violence, to do [it].
18 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the
son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him,
[saying], Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not
lament for him, [saying], Ah lord! or, Ah his glory!
19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ass, drawn and
cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.
21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; [but] thou saidst,
I will not hear. This [hath been] thy manner from thy youth,
that thou obeyedst not my voice.
17 On the one hand, people will ask why do children suffer, etc (why are
the innocent destroyed), but then they might say that we don't have to
act because God will do what's necessary, we don't have to do much more
than pray, etc.
18-19,21 Didn't say he should disarm, said since he won't repent, he
should be done away with. Certainly didn't say everyone should disarm
because he was evil.
16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the
words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you
vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out
of the mouth of the LORD.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath
said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that
walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil
shall come upon you.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my
people to hear my words, then they should have turned them
from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
It is wrong to say the wicked will have peace (*17).
17 There is no peace to the wicked.
This is an excellent way to protect a nation, turn it to God and to
Part of doing God's word is to turn the wicked from their wickedness.
Wiping them out isn't always a solution (that isn't how God wanted to
turn his nation from wickedness, ie kill them all), although if they
refuse to repent, God might do that, and we might wipe out some trying
to rescue the innocent; but we have to remember, that's not our goal--**
our goal is to cause the wicked to repent ** !! That's also God's goal
and why he sends destruction upon them, to break their wills and cause
them to turn to him. Unfortunately, more often than not the wicked
harden their necks and refuse to repent.
8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so
evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah
the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of
Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in
the land of Egypt:
9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the
kingdoms of the earth for [their] hurt, [to be] a reproach
and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I
shall drive them.
10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the
pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the
land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.
The armed, aggressive wicked are God's tool to punish the wicked nation
(but they, too, shall be punished for harming the innocent and
destroying God's people).
12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are
accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon, and
that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the
land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual
14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves
of them also: and I will recompense them according to their
deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because
of the sword that I will send among them.
27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD
of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and
spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which
I will send among you.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is
called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye
shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon
all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
The punisher who also destroys God's people will also be punished--by
12 There is never an excuse to harm the innocent, even if you are doing
"God's work," because even if that's the case, and it probably is just
delusional thinking on your part, God will punish you for what you did.
16 Again the sword, ie, violence against them, not just the existence of
weapons--is punishment for sins.
31 A noise shall come [even] to the ends of the earth; for
the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead
with all flesh; he will give them [that are] wicked to the
sword, saith the LORD.
(*) God will give those who are wicked to the sword. The sword and
violence are both a divine punishment of God, and the natural
consequences of wickedness (perhaps God does nothing more than allow the
natural consequences of sin to take effect, and he stops helping the
punished to defend itself from stopping the evil that comes against
it) (when the wicked are increased, the land is full of wickedness).
God doesn't say he will deal with the problem by disarming the wicked,
he says he will destroy them and punish them and send the sword against
them. That's what we ought to do to the wicked, not try to disarm them
(especially not by the convoluted method of disarming and punishing the
good), but by punishing and wiping them off the face of the earth.
We also have to remember that when a land is full of sin and innocent
blood (like abortion, etc) we will not have peace (no peace to the
wicked). We will not be able to have peace because of God's divine
judgment and because wicked people don't deal with themselves properly,
and the wicked rule and lead the land into more sin.
34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves [in
the ashes], ye principal of the flock: for the days of your
slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye
shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the
principal of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of
the principal of the flock, [shall be heard]: for the LORD
hath spoiled their pasture.
37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of
the fierce anger of the LORD.
38 He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their
land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor,
and because of his fierce anger.
(38) Both God's anger and the oppressor are against the land--divine
judgment and natural consequences.
"fierceness of the oppressor"
Tyranny requires repentence as well as resistance.
3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his
evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose
to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
The way to divert the sword and God's wrath is not to disarm everyone,
but to repent. It could also be turned around to say repent instead of
resist, but we already know we ahe to do the Lord's fast (break yokes),
and Jer 22:3 (do right by rescuing, don't sin, or could be taken to mean
stop sinning, ie repent, because if he has to tell them to not do it,
they must already be doing it or be tempted to do it), and exercise
faith by doing works of righteousness, etc.Then again, you also have to
put away wickedness (and do it in part by putting away the wicked), and
that isn't mentioned either.
14 As for me, behold, I [am] in your hand: do with me as
seemeth good and meet unto you.
15 But know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye
shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon
this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth
the LORD hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in
Innocent blood is borne by more than just the murderers--it is borne by
the city and even the nation and those who do not stop it, the innocent,
8 And it shall come to pass, [that] the nation and kingdom
which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of
Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of
the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the
LORD, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the
pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.
God will use the king to do his will--just like he will use us to do his
will, but that doesn't mean whatever the king does is God's will, and
we're not going to slip back into Divine Right or Divine Rule or
whatever it was whereby the king thought he had God's permission to rule
and whatever he decided was unquestionable and unchallengable.
Also, sword, famine, pestilence are God's punishments for rejecting him.
But not always. Sometimes these things just happen, and we have to fight
against them, and just because we serve God doesn't mean we will win
against them. God will be with us through the trouble and will help us,
but not necessarily help us to overcome everything.
In this case God put them under a tyrant on purpose and anyone who
resisted, God was going to destroy (to put away their sins by putting
them away). Not that he doesn't do that today, but we have no way of
knowing when he does that--our job is to fight evil and defend the
13 Why will ye die, thou and thy people, by the sword, by
the famine, and by the pestilence, as the LORD hath spoken
against the nation that will not serve the king of Babylon?
Same list of punishments.
9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your
diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor
to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall
not serve the king of Babylon:
14 Therefore hearken not unto the words of the prophets
that speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of
Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you.
16 Also I spake to the priests and to all this people,
saying, Thus saith the LORD; Hearken not to the words of
your prophets that prophesy unto you, saying, Behold, the
vessels of the LORD'S house shall now shortly be brought
again from Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you.
17 Hearken not unto them; serve the king of Babylon, and
live: wherefore should this city be laid waste?
Don't listen to those who falsely say what God says, listen to (read)
God's word and follow it, not the prophets who say things from their own
If you listen to them instead of God, you will suffer the
consequences--the land will be destroyed--by the multiplying and
unchecked wicked, the sins of the nation, and God's wrath.
9 If a prophet is in the same company as diviners, dreamers, enchanters,
and sourcerers, you better check him out! If you listen to such advice,
you are in trouble!
15 Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the
prophet, Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee;
but thou makest this people to trust in a lie.
16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee
from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die,
because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.
If you tell people things that God says which he didn't say, and make
them trust in things that are false, God will punish you, and the whole
nation will suffer because they didn't do what God wanted.
Those who go around (like Clinton and his crime bill) and say it is
God's will that the good be disarmed will cause the nation to suffer,
because the bad consequences will come upon the whole nation, because
they believe lies. Also, God will deal with those people for spreading
like in his name and saying he said things he didn't.
Again, the people should have done what they should do now, instead of
stupidly saying amen to whatever the prophets say, they should look to
God's word, at the very least to see what are the general principles
about which the prophets speak. That is what this book is trying to do.
Someone believes a lie. They spread it around to to others. Others
believe is and practice it. It spreads throughout society--not
necessarily everyone, but enough--and becomes widely practiced. The
consequences of the lie begin to occur. The nation crumbles a
15. Because ye have said, The LORD hath raised us up
prophets in Babylon;
16 [Know] that thus saith the LORD of the king that
sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that
dwelleth in this city, [and] of your brethren that are not
gone forth with you into captivity;
17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon
them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will
make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so
18 And I will persecute them with the sword, with the
famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be
removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and
an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all
the nations whither I have driven them:
19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the
LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets,
rising up early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear,
saith the LORD.
More divine judgment--sword, famine, pestilence because they didn't
19 Destruction by sword, etc comes from not listening to God's word.
3 For Zedekiah king of Judah had shut him up, saying,
Wherefore dost thou prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD,
Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the king of
Babylon, and he shall take it;
4 And Zedekiah king of Judah shall not escape out of the
hand of the Chaldeans, but shall surely be delivered into
the hand of the king of Babylon, and shall speak with him
mouth to mouth, and his eyes shall behold his eyes;
5 And he shall lead Zedekiah to Babylon, and there shall
he be until I visit him, saith the LORD: though ye fight
with the Chaldeans, ye shall not prosper.
When God's had enough of sin, he will fight against you and you won't
stand against the enemy.
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil
which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every
man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and
7 It may be they will present their supplication before
the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for
great [is] the anger and the fury that the LORD hath
pronounced against this people.
3 The evil and destruction is to bring them to repentence. God first
told them what he was going to do so they would have a chance to repent.
We today have God's word and we know what it says. We will recieve no
special communications from God, because it's all already been
communicated to us, what is required, what will happen if we don't. If
our nation persists in sin, the destruction we are suffering will not
only continue unabated, but will increase until we are destroyed.
19 Then said the princes unto Baruch, Go, hide thee, thou
and Jeremiah; and let no man know where ye be.
26 But the king commanded Jerahmeel the son of Hammelech,
and Seraiah the son of Azriel, and Shelemiah the son of
Abdeel, to take Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet:
but the LORD hid them.
Hiding is a low level defense--no force required against the enemy--God
blessed their hiding and made it work--kept them hidden.
10 For though ye had smitten the whole army of the
Chaldeans that fight against you, and there remained [but]
wounded men among them, [yet] should they rise up every man
in his tent, and burn this city with fire.
It doesn't matter how well armed you are or how poorly armed the enemy
is--even if they had taken all their weapons and wiped them out all but
1 man, and wounded him, God would have enabled that 1 man to carry out
God's judgment against the city. Fighting and killing the enemy and
criminals won't reduce the problems if they are caused by God's
judgment. In that case, the action needs to be coupled with repentance.
In some cases, the action is repentance, because it is turning away from
that which angers God, it is dealing with the wicked, protecting the
1. In the ninth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the
tenth month, came Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon and all his
army against Jerusalem, and they besieged it.
2 [And] in the eleventh year of Zedekiah, in the fourth
month, the ninth [day] of the month, the city was broken up.
8 And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the
houses of the people, with fire, and brake down the walls of
9 Then Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away
captive into Babylon the remnant of the people that remained
in the city, and those that fell away, that fell to him,
with the rest of the people that remained.
11. Now Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon gave charge
concerning Jeremiah to Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard,
12 Take him, and look well to him, and do him no harm; but
do unto him even as he shall say unto thee.
16 Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus
saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will
bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good;
and they shall be [accomplished] in that day before thee.
17 But I will deliver thee in that day, saith the LORD:
and thou shalt not be given into the hand of the men of whom
thou [art] afraid.
18 For I will surely deliver thee, and thou shalt not fall
by the sword, but thy life shall be for a prey unto thee:
because thou hast put thy trust in me, saith the LORD.
1-2 The wicked and the righteous and the innocent all were all
were taken captive, all suffered from the famine, many were killed.
8 Their houses were burned (from 1-2), their protection was removed.
9 They were taken captive (from 1-2).
11-12 Jeremiah was treated well, after the seige was over.
16-18 This guy, too, has God's promise of protection, but he was still a
captive, even though he was a believer and follower of God, he suffered
too because of the sins of others.
4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains
which [were] upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to
come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto
thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into
Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land [is] before thee:
whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go,
5 Now while he was not yet gone back, [he said], Go back
also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom
the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of
Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go
wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the
captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let
He was probably the only one given this liberty.
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have
seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and
upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they
[are] a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,
3 Because of their wickedness which they have committed to
provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense,
[and] to serve other gods, whom they knew not, [neither]
they, ye, nor your fathers.
The land was destroyed because of the wickedness, and the refusal to
repent and obey God.
4 Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets,
rising early and sending [them], saying, Oh, do not this
abominable thing that I hate.
5 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn
from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods.
6 Wherefore my fury and mine anger was poured forth, and
was kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of
Jerusalem; and they are wasted [and] desolate, as at this
7 Therefore now thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the
God of Israel; Wherefore commit ye [this] great evil against
your souls, to cut off from you man and woman, child and
suckling, out of Judah, to leave you none to remain;
8 In that ye provoke me unto wrath with the works of your
hands, burning incense unto other gods in the land of Egypt,
whither ye be gone to dwell, that ye might cut yourselves
off, and that ye might be a curse and a reproach among all
the nations of the earth?
9 Have ye forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, and
the wickedness of the kings of Judah, and the wickedness of
their wives, and your own wickedness, and the wickedness of
your wives, which they have committed in the land of Judah,
and in the streets of Jerusalem?
10 They are not humbled [even] unto this day, neither have
they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that
I set before you and before your fathers.
11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of
Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and
to cut off all Judah.
12 And I will take the remnant of Judah, that have set
their faces to go into the land of Egypt to sojourn there,
and they shall all be consumed, [and] fall in the land of
Egypt; they shall [even] be consumed by the sword [and] by
the famine: they shall die, from the least even unto the
greatest, by the sword and by the famine: and they shall be
an execration, [and] an astonishment, and a curse, and a
13 For I will punish them that dwell in the land of Egypt,
as I have punished Jerusalem, by the sword, by the famine,
and by the pestilence:
14 So that none of the remnant of Judah, which are gone
into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall escape or
remain, that they should return into the land of Judah, to
the which they have a desire to return to dwell there: for
none shall return but such as shall escape.
15. Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned
incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a
great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land
of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,
16 [As for] the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the
name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.
17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth
out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of
heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have
done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in
the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for
[then] had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of
heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have
wanted all [things], and have been consumed by the sword and
by the famine.
19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and
poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes
to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her,
without our men?
20. Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and
to the women, and to all the people which had given him
[that] answer, saying,
21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and
in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your
kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not
the LORD remember them, and came it [not] into his mind?
22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the
evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which
ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and
an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at
23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have
sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of
the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in
his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you,
as at this day.
24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all
the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that [are]
in the land of Egypt:
25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel,
saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths,
and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform
our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of
heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will
surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that
dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great
name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in
the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt,
saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for
good: and all the men of Judah that [are] in the land of
Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine,
until there be an end of them.
28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return
out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the
remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to
sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or
29 And this [shall be] a sign unto you, saith the LORD,
that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that
my words shall surely stand against you for evil:
30 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give Pharaohhophra
king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the
hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedekiah king of
Judah into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, his
enemy, and that sought his life.
More of the same--the evil people reveal their wickedness, which brings
on more destruction, including of the innocent children and those who
are guilty of nothing more than rejecting God.
7 This evil will bring destruction to the most innocent of
innocent--child and suckling.
10 They are like the people of Revelation, and like many today, they
will not repent even though they are seeing destruction--it hardens them
more and more.
12 The least to the greatest will suffer violence, because of sin. No
one, innocent, believer, or otherwise, will be exempted.
18 Here is a perfect example of twisting statistics to prove a lie.
Also, here's how a liberal would justify evil laws and deeds by saying
that bad things happen if they don't do it.
14 Declare ye in Egypt, and publish in Migdol, and publish
in Noph and in Tahpanhes: say ye, Stand fast, and prepare
thee; for the sword shall devour round about thee.
15 Why are thy valiant [men] swept away? they stood not,
because the LORD did drive them.
Prepare for war and strengthen yourself, but for no use, because God is
15 When you cannot stop the enemy it is time to stop and ask yourself
why, and see if there is sin in the camp, and seek his face, his
strength (Amos), his mercy, his forgiveness, and his help, and his
15 Why are thy valiant [men] swept away? they stood not,
because the LORD did drive them.
16 He made many to fall, yea, one fell upon another: and
they said, Arise, and let us go again to our own people, and
to the land of our nativity, from the oppressing sword.
God is involved in the war, and he generally uses people when he is
involved, whether it be wicked kings or the righteous, them he uses to
accomplish his will. Of course, he can even use the devil to fulfill his
will, so don't think it too big a deal if God uses you in some way, be
sure most of all that you are in good standing with him first, , and
that what you are doing is not contrary to his word, and then it is a
good deal if God uses you.
6 O thou sword of the LORD, how long [will it be] ere thou
be quiet? put up thyself into thy scabbard, rest, and be
7 How can it be quiet, seeing the LORD hath given it a
charge against Ashkelon, and against the sea shore? there
hath he appointed it.
God was involved in the war. (Did he work through someone, or do it all
10 Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD
deceitfully, and cursed [be] he that keepeth back his sword
God pronounced judgment and destruction against Moab.
When God commands use of the sword, he curses those who fail to obey. If we
fail to use the sword to protect our families, we are worse than
42 And Moab shall be destroyed from [being] a people,
because he hath magnified [himself] against the LORD.
One of the reasons for which God destroys a nation--that's one reason
why the righteous need to stay in power and influential positions, to
lead it in the right way.
When we are strong, we must keep ourselves humbled before God.
16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, [and] the pride of
thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock,
that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest
make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down
from thence, saith the LORD.
Doesn't matter how strong you are if God is against you.
Some might take this and say, well, it doesn't matter how strong you
are, God can use you in any case, so you don't even have to try to be
strong, because God can use whatever you have. While that is true to
some extent that God can use whatever you have, you also have to be
wise and see the evil afar off and prepare yourself. And God expects you
to live in this physical world and reap and sow--deal with physical
problems on a physical level--ie meet a challenge with whatever
necessary to overcome it physically, instead of just making a token,
halp-hearted, sloppy effort and expect that God will make up the
difference between your laziness or unpreparedness and the thread,
humbly hoping God will give you good success in your endeavor; not just
sitting around and expecting God to do it all for you.
7 All that found them have devoured them: and their
adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned
against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD,
the hope of their fathers.
Destroying God's people Israel is wrong even if they sinned. This could
be twisted to say it is always sinful to kill any of God's people, even
when they sin (as in self-defense), but that's not right, because God
gave the death penalty for various sins of his people without any curse
to the revenger of blood.
I think this is against the heathen nations that destroy God's people
not according to his law (give them a trial to see if they are guilty,
then put the guilty to death, not the innocent. Whoever lumps the
innocent in with the guilty is in big trouble.), not for any good reason
(other than they are God's judgment against his people) like defense or
cap pun, which God doesn't hold the blood against the killer.
14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about:
all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for
she hath sinned against the LORD.
No warning here to those who destroy Babylon, because they are not his
I suppose the focus of the destruction of Babylon is on the wicked who
make Babylon an evil place, and the innocent folks there are just out of
luck, they will take it on the chin like the wicked. That's partly the
result of living in an evil world--the innocent are destroyed, and
partly the consequence of allowing evil to be in control--you suffer
whatever punishment comes upon the evil, perhaps in part for allowing
16 Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth
the sickle in the time of harvest: for fear of the
oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people,
and they shall flee every one to his own land.
Oppressing sword again is God's judgment against Babylon.
24 I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken,
O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also
caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD.
Babylon strove against God, that's why it's being destroyed, like the
heathen who rage in Psalm 5 (? or thereabouts), and the
Libertarian/anarchist types who like their RTKBA and free enterprise but
tell God to take a hike and say "we will not have this man to rule over
us, and yell, scream, hollar, and foam about God's rules, or those who
call themselves Christians or God-fearing and yet persist in sin.
11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD
hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his
device [is] against Babylon, to destroy it; because it [is]
the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.
But God doesn't (does he?) call for judgment against the Medes for
destroying Babylon because Babylon is not his nation?
If you do God's work, you better not do it against his word or against
his people, or he will clobber you next.
12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the
watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for
the LORD hath both devised and done that which he spake
against the inhabitants of Babylon.
13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in
treasures, thine end is come, [and] the measure of thy
When God is against you, make yourself strong, but it won't help,
because you will be wiped out.
20 Thou [art] my battle axe [and] weapons of war: for with
thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will
I destroy kingdoms;
21 And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his
rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and
22 With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman;
and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with
thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;
23 I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and
his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the
husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break
in pieces captains and rulers.
Is this Babylon he's talking about?
25 Behold, I [am] against thee, O destroying mountain,
saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will
stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the
rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
He doesn't destroy just those biblically OK to destroy, he wipes them
35 The violence done to me and to my flesh [be] upon
Babylon, shall the inhabitant of Zion say; and my blood upon
the inhabitants of Chaldea, shall Jerusalem say.
36 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will plead thy
cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will dry up her
sea, and make her springs dry.
God will take vengeance for his people's blood.
53 Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though
she should fortify the height of her strength, [yet] from me
shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD.
No amount of weapons can help when God is against you. Ask the armies at
the end of Revelation.
56 Because the spoiler is come upon her, [even] upon
Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their
bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely
God doesn't say he will disarm Babylon (actually, it IS one of God's
judgments to disarm a people, and then they will be vulnerable to their
oppressors, which are naturally occurring enough), he says he will
hinder their fighting and their weapons, and he will destroy
the people--that's what we ought to do as a nation to our wicked.
14 And all the army of the Chaldeans, that [were] with the
captain of the guard, brake down all the walls of Jerusalem
The enemy took away that which kept out the enemy and which protected
them somewhat. Left them vulnerable to whomever came along. Of course
they (the walls) couldn't stop the great army of Babylon, but also now
they couldn't stop anything, from robbers to small bands of enemy, etc.
Definition of the enemy:
It is the nature of the enemy and of the evil to remove the defenses of
the people, no matter how passive those means are.
You can put this in with the verses for gun control--the people are
stripped by the enemy of at least some of their defenses. It is in their
nature to do this. You could even call this a definition of the
wicked (or better, a definition of the enemy)--they destroy the means to
resist them, and in so doing, also destroy or lessen the ability to
resist criminals, mauraders, other invaders, etc.
So it follows the definition that anyone who disables your ability to
resist them is your enemy--like the feds who want to disarm us, make
sure we can't and don't make bombs (fertilizer laws, etc), make sure we
can't communicate securely by outlawing encryption, etc--they wish us to
be completely open and transparent and vulnerable to them.
25 He took also out of the city an eunuch, which had the
charge of the men of war; and seven men of them that were
near the king's person, which were found in the city; and
the principal scribe of the host, who mustered the people of
the land; and threescore men of the people of the land, that
were found in the midst of the city.
26 So Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard took them, and
brought them to the king of Babylon to Riblah.
27 And the king of Babylon smote them, and put them to
death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was
carried away captive out of his own land.
Completely destroyed their ability to muster a defense.
He left alone only those who would give him the fruits and products of
the land 52:16, like Bill C., wo leaves alone anyone who faithfully and
without resistance gives him their share of their wealth.
Another definition of the enemy. Destroy the ability to organize into
armed groups for defense or resistance to them, ie, the enemy.
8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is
removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they
have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth
9 Her filthiness [is] in her skirts; she remembereth not
her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had
no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy
hath magnified [himself].
The nation was destroyed because of their wickedness and sin, not
because of objects.
He is a righteous man, yet he is suffering because of the sins of
others. The innocent suffer and are destroyed because of others.
Christians suffer because of the sins of others, Lot
12. [Is it] nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold,
and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is
done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted [me] in the
day of his fierce anger.
13 From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it
prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet,
he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate [and] faint
all the day.
He suffers greatly even though he's innocent, and in fact he tried to
turn the people away from their wickedness, and he tried to save the
nation from destruction. Too bad, he's suffering with the rest of
11 Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled,
my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of
the daughter of my people; because the children and the
sucklings swoon in the streets of the city.
12 They say to their mothers, Where [is] corn and wine?
when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city,
when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.
19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the
watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of
the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy
young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every
20 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom thou hast done
this. Shall the women eat their fruit, [and] children of a
span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the
sanctuary of the Lord?
21 The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets:
my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou
hast slain [them] in the day of thine anger; thou hast
killed, [and] not pitied.
The innocent suffer for the sins of others, that is the nature of
sin--it harms more than just those involved in the sin. Sometimes it
almost seems that destroying and harming and spoiling the innocent is
the GOAL of sin, not just a coincidental happenstance. Evil child
molesters target innocent children. Murders target harmless people.
Thieves target old and feeble people, etc. Change agents seek to corrupt
innocents minds in government schools.
1. I [am] the man [that] hath seen affliction by the rod of
2 He hath led me, and brought [me into] darkness, but not
3 Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand
[against me] all the day.
4 My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my
5 He hath builded against me, and compassed [me] with gall
6 He hath set me in dark places, as [they that be] dead of
7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath
made my chain heavy.
8 Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.
9 He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made
my paths crooked.
10 He [was] unto me [as] a bear lying in wait, [and as] a
lion in secret places.
11 He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces:
he hath made me desolate.
12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the
13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into
14 I was a derision to all my people; [and] their song all
15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me
drunken with wormwood.
16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he
hath covered me with ashes.
17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I
18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from
19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood
and the gall.
But Jeremiah was a righteous man and a servant of God, yet he suffers greatly
for the sins of his nation. Christians are not exempt from suffering
from the sins of others either.
12, 13 God's weapons--figurative in this case, I think.
4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of
his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, [and] no
man breaketh [it] unto them.
6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my
people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom,
that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on
10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own
children: they were their meat in the destruction of the
daughter of my people.
11 The LORD hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out
his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it
hath devoured the foundations thereof.
The innocent suffer and are destroyed.
13. For the sins of her prophets, [and] the iniquities of
her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the
midst of her,
Because of the sins of the prophets, the people believed lies and
wouldn't repent, and that brought in destruction, which includes the
destruction of the just.
The just are destroyed because of the sins of others, because of God's
judgment against an evil nation. One of the biggest sins was by
Manassah, who filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, which the LORD would
Our nation has shed even more innocent blood. We have probably killed
more babies than the entire population of Israel and Judah. What is in
store for us? It has to be worse than what Lamentations records. And, we
the "just" who stood by while all this was happening will not be exempt
from that suffering and judgment! We knew it was happening (we cannot
claim that our eyes did not see the murder). We stood by
while it was happening (like whomever it was that stood by while Israel
was being destroyed). Some of us even helped the enemy (like Bill Price
who applauds those Christians who gave money to abortionists because
other Christians were trying to stop those abortionists from their
sins. Perhaps he reads Jesus saying to be: slaughter the little children
and send them to me, and forbid them not, for all such will end up in
the kingdom of God).
Perhaps the righteous were not the salt and light they were supposed to
be, partially because righteousness was not passed down to the children,
and therefore the evil of society grew so great that the sin of the
society grew so great that the natural consequences of all that sin were
so powerful, plus God's anger was so much, that it brought on the
incredible destruction described in Lamentations, and the few righteous
left could not turn the tide of the sin, and so could not stave off the
9 We gat our bread with [the peril of] our lives because
of the sword of the wilderness.
10 Our skin was black like an oven because of the terrible
11 They ravished the women in Zion, [and] the maids in the
cities of Judah.
12 Princes are hanged up by their hand: the faces of
elders were not honoured.
13 They took the young men to grind, and the children fell
under the wood.
14 The elders have ceased from the gate, the young men
from their musick.
16 The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that
we have sinned!
22 But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth
Destruction and suffering of the innocent because of sin.
7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they
will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they [are] most
We have to do what God commands us whether or not our efforts bring the
desired result (or perhaps, whether or not we see the result), whether
it's warning the nation of sin and repentance or standing against wrong
and for good or defending the innocent, etc.
11 And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the
children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether
they will forbear.
Same as 2:7
17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house
of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give
them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and
thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked
from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man]
shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his
wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his
iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his
righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a
stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast
not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his
righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered;
but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the
righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely
live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy
Even the destruction of the wicked from God's wrath will be held against
us in certain cases, just because the destruction is caused by God's
wrath, that doesn't let us off the hook to do what we can to keep them
from the destruction and protect them.
Just like the watchman must warn the wicked people when God sends bands
of destroyers to punish them for their sins, if he doesn't do his job,
he is guilty and God holds him responsible.
Similarly, God sends evil nations against Israel to punish it for it's
sins, but what the punishing nation does is still a sin, and God will in
turn punish them. Their sin is commission, destroying the good by doing
evil. Likewise, when the consequences of sin catch up with a nation and
that nation is being destroyed because of it's evil, perhaps we are not
doing it, but if we do not step in to try to help those being destroyed,
we are just as guilty, because of what we do or don't do, we destroy
the good. Our sin is omission, but the results are the same, the evil
destroy the good.
Disarming the good, or preventing them from arming themselves, or
preventing them from arming themselves adequately, so they are harmed or
destroyed by the evil, is no different than doing the harming, and will
bring God's wrath either way. If you rape a woman, or tie up her husband
so someone else can rape her, what's the difference? If you kill a
police man, or take his gun in a dark alley so someone else can do it,
what's the difference? There might be a difference in intent, you took
his gun so everyone would be safe, and not so someone could murder him,
but the results were the same, a dead policeman because of your doing.
If you are incapable of seeing the whole picture, I don't think that
excuses you. Anti-gunners can't see the whole picture. They only see the
harm that is done with guns. They don't see the good. I don't think that
excuses them from the destruction they cause. They accidentally destroy
the innocent. Or do they?
Perhaps the see only part of it because of their viewpoint. They see
something worse than the destruction of the innocent, they see violence
as worse than destruction. They are better red than dead.
From their socialist viewpoint, individuals do not have the right to
defend themselves. Perhaps it is because they do not see a clear cut
difference between good and evil, righteousness and wickedness, innocent
and guilty, etc. I can't quite say what is percolating in my head. Their
view of the individual and of force (I suppose as long as it is someone
else who is the victim of crime) are cockeyed enough that ... I don't
They don't want anyone to have power over anyone else. They want us all
to be disarmed. Some of them want to emasculate the men, the military,
the police, etc. It's not that they have no regard for the individual
whatsoever, they want the individual to say or paint or do anything he
wants, sexual or whatever. It's that old adage, you can do whatever you
want as long as you don't hurt anyone, just like that saying from Wicca
which is about the same. (Kinda interesting that they use almost
verbatim philosophy as is found in witchcraft) I think basically they
don't want anyone to force anything on anyone else, morals, rules, and
even violence. You do that by making all religions equal, no one can
promote theirs above anyone else's (of course, some are more equal than
others and can walk upright, like Secular Humanism).
Perhaps it is kinda an elitist notion that most of us are to be down
here doing our own thing, pursuing our interests, and absolutely
whatever we want, as long as we don't harm anyone, and the only one
allowed to force anything--make sure (enFORCE that we) we don't force
our religion on anyone, make sure (enFORCE that we) we don't force
anything economic or sexual or violent (the s&m-ers can do whatever they
want, because it's voluntary) or racial (the blacks can call themselves
niggers, but we can't mention the word) or political ideology (the PC
elites have to make sure we don't violate that one and force anything on
anyone)--are those up there who make sure we do what is right, or maybe
better, what is left, and they can use whatever force necessary to take
care of everyone and make sure everyone has their rights untrampled.
The problem is, all the above paragraph is just a smoke screen to enforce
leftist values and make sure no rightist values exist and certainly to
make sure they are not propagated.
Song of Solomon (huh?) we come back to the beginning of the circle, it is
their values. But WHY do they think that? They don't see the harm in
porno or music or alcohol, or if they see the harm, they consider it
abuse of a good thing, and they see good uses from them, or at least a
right to them, that outweighs any harm. Perhaps because each of these
contain indulgences they enjoy. They find no indulgence in guns, no fun
use. They find no benefit from guns, not being the owners of any. They
find no use for guns, not having been around any to see any good use.
All they see, from TV, criminals mugging them, the newspaper, is misuse
of guns, and so their reaction to them is fear and the urge to be
protected from guns by doing away with them. Perhaps one of their
problems is wanting to be protected from any harm and not wanting to
take responsibility for their own protection. Maybe you could call that
irresponsibility in self-preservation, but that also extends to
protecting others, even their families, which they surrender to gov't.
They surrender their responsibility in this area. They surrender their
responsibility to feed and clothe the poor, to raise their children, to
teach their children, to run the economy (socialism, the Federal
Reserve, etc), to administer health care, etc to gov't.
They tell women to not resist rape, except maybe to run away or avoid
bad places, no one should resist burglary, robbery, car jackings, etc,
but say give them what they want and don't resist except to call the
police. They say no property is worth your life, but don't seem to
include in their thinking that if you don't have the means to protect
yourself you are putting your fate in the hands of someone who is
There seems to be an awful lot of pacifism. Where does it come from?
In Germany the good of the individual was surrendered for the good of
the state. Whenever the good of the state and the good of the individual
conflicted, the good of the individual took a back seat. If individuals were
set back, it didn't matter as long as the state was not set back. Arms
could be used against the state, so these were not allowed, except for
those who were special to the state, ie who would not use weapons
against the state, but would use them for the state. Anyone who would be
neutral in their use would be disarmed, only those using their arms
positively for the state were allowed. If individuals were harmed by
criminals, that was bad, but that was not so bad that those individuals
would be given a tool that could be possibly used against the state,
which in today's lingo might be termed "the good of the whole," or even
"the good for the majority," which might be interchangeable terms with
the word "state." I think the socialist component of anti-gun is close
to the heart of the matter, although it's not too clear to me yet.
Only the state had the right to use force, because that was something
exercised by very important entities, by entities that had absolute
rights to be over other, lesser entities. Individuals were lesser.
The state was greater. Individuals did not have rights, inalienable or
otherwise, just privileges granted for the benefit of the state. The
state did have inalienable rights, and whatever it did was right, and
anyone opposed to it was wrong. The state and the individual were not
equal. They didn't have any special standing with anyone--not given
inalienable rights by God, not special to God separate from their
existence as part of the State. They didn't really have any meaning in
their existence except as a part of the state. Apart from that, their
existence was meaningless. I don't think anti-gunners take it this far,
but they do have a thing about the individual exercising force that they
don't have about the state, because of some difference, probably related
to this socialist mumbo. They don't believe in God-given inalienable
rights, at least not from the Bible's perspective.
11 Violence is risen up into a rod of wickedness: none of
them [shall remain], nor of their multitude, nor of any of
theirs: neither [shall there be] wailing for them.
Violence has become a tool of punishment?
Violence is part of wickedness? The violence they practiced has resulted
in a rod of wickedness that will punish them?
I don't know what it means.
VIOLENCE--a word to add to the weapon list.
23. Make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes,
and the city is full of violence.
God isn't pleased when a land is full of violence. This is obviously the
bad kind, wherein the innocent are harmed.
Good people do not go around committing violence for no reason. When the
land if full of violence, it is because the nation is full of evil
people who do evil, violent acts.
25 Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and
[there shall be] none.
There is no peace for the wicked or for the wicked nation.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of
man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they
commit the abominations which they commit here? for they
have filled the land with violence, and have returned to
provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their
The wicked and ungodly have filled the land with violence--The wicked do
violence, not the just! God is angry at the violence of the wicked, not
the self-defense of the just as is borne out by every example of the
just using force to defend themselves and others.
1. He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying,
Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even
every man [with] his destroying weapon in his hand.
2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher
gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a
slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was]
clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and
they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
God's angels use slaughter weapons to do God's will.
Angels armed with slaughter weapons. Would make a nice picture to show angels
armed with swords, clubs, maces, and a Galil and a Glock or two. Or show
angels with swords and us with guns.
God has weapons and angels have weapons, meaning they couldn't be
inherently evil--or they would have nothing to do with them.
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the
city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon
the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the
abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after
him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare,
neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little
children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom
[is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at
the ancient men which [were] before the house.
In this instance all those seeking passionately for God were spared
their lives, but not the loss of loved ones, and the loss of their city,
and perhaps captivity, and possibly the loss of all their possessions
when the enemy invaded, and maybe they were all raped, etc.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the
courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and
slew in the city.
God gave the command to slaughter the wicked. There must be at least some
instances where killing is not evil, because God would not make his children
do something evil.
Actually, these were angels. There is somewhat of a different standard
between us and them. We can't go around killing people because God told
us--because he doesn't tell us that stuff. When we kill, it is only
under the circumstances he has outlined already--and this is not it--we
are not allowed to punish or destroy people in this way (in self-defense
or capital punishment related matters, yes). Those people who are used
of God to destroy in this way are themselves punished and destroyed by
God for harming the innocent, etc.
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of
Israel and Judah [is] exceeding great, and the land is full
of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say,
The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
When a land is full of innocent blood, it brings God's wrath--even
though Ezekiel pleaded with God, it wasn't enough, although God spared
those who were pleading in this instance.
5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto
me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house
of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind,
[every one of] them.
6 Ye have multiplied your slain in this city, and ye have
filled the streets thereof with the slain.
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Your slain whom ye
have laid in the midst of it, they [are] the flesh, and this
[city is] the caldron: but I will bring you forth out of the
midst of it.
8 Ye have feared the sword; and I will bring a sword upon
you, saith the Lord GOD.
9 And I will bring you out of the midst thereof, and
deliver you into the hands of strangers, and will execute
judgments among you.
10 Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the
border of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
The city is full of murdered people, therefore God's wrath is coming--he
will bring a sword against the city and captivity.
When a land or city is full of innocent blood, it brings God's
destruction (this fits under: innocent blood brings God's wrath, if the
godly don't stop it they will also suffer, the righteous will be
destroyed with the wicked, we must stop the destruction of the innocent
or we will suffer God's destruction). amd everybody suffers, even if God
makes us a way of escape, and more innocent are destroyed, etc. Part of
us exercising defense for ourselves, families, and country is to stave
off this destruction by seeking God's mercy and also by putting works to
our faith--by stopping the destruction of the innocent so God's
destruction (and the natural consequences of this sin: people are
hardened to it, begin to practice it themselves, if they aren't
motivated to protect the most innocent, they won't be motivated or be
empathetic to any suffereing of any sort, if a mother can be convinced
to kill her baby, she can be convinced of any evil, etc) don't happen
and destroy us, our nation, our ability to spread the gospel to other
nations because of the prosperity and stability of our nation, etc.
16 "yet will I be to them as a little sactuary"
But not much of one.
16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have
cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have
scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as
a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even
gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the
countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you
the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away
all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations
thereof from thence.
19 And say unto the people of the land, Thus saith the
Lord GOD of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [and] of the land
of Israel; They shall eat their bread with carefulness, and
drink their water with astonishment, that her land may be
desolate from all that is therein, because of the violence
of all them that dwell therein.
21 But [as for them] whose heart walketh after the heart
of their detestable things and their abominations, I will
recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord
All of them will go into captivity? But some will return and be blessed
and have their hearts changed, except those who walk after "detestable
things," who will be destroyed.
19 God does not like a land to be full of violence. If you love your
country, try to stop it.
19 I think violence here means the harm and destruction of the innocent
and helpless, etc.
21 Here it's clear that they will reap the consequences of their sins,
which is destruction to them and the nation. Another way to defend the
nation is to put away the evil doers so they don't sin and bring
destruction to all of us and our country.
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets,
that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the
hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the
day of the LORD.
God is angry at those who don't stand in the gap or make up the hedge
(means of protection) for their people and their nation. We have a
responsibility to do whatever it takes to protect our nation and the
innocent within it.
"the day of the Lord" is obviously the day of judgment, when they will
be wiped out for their sins--probably by invading armies, sword, famine,
Even in the "day of the Lord"--is that the day of God's judgment and
wrath?--we have to stand in the battle? This was about the lying
prophets who did not stand in the gap for their nation--instead they
told lies, and didn't lead the people to repent and seek and serve God,
they told them lies, and the people comforted themselves with these lies
and didn't feel any urgency to turn from their sins to avoid God's wrath
and judgment--and so God's destruction came--and in this way the
prophets failed to stand up for their nation in the day of
battle--because there was no repentence or submission to God, which
might have brought God's mercy and have given them some rescuing or
victory in the battle. It is obviously about more than just successfully
swinging a sword--it is about having God's help and staving off his
destruction--but--I think it could be part of the verses about fighting
when it's time to fight and let people know they have to stand in the
battle as well as stand for righteousness and against sin before the
Maybe he's saying they led Israel astray and that brought in the
judgment--ie, the enemy, and now that they brought them in, they are not
trying to stop and fight against them to protect Israel--ie, make up the
gaps in the wall and fight in the battle.
Maybe he's saying they didn't ell the truth, which would have been
standing in the gap and fighting in the battle--because it might have
kept Israel from going so far astray that the enemy had to come in.
I think this is close. Two ideas are presented here: 1. the prophets did
not tell the truth, 2. they did not stand in the gaps or the battle.
We can conclude several things: It is wrong to be a lying prophet--in
fact, it is a gross evil--since #2 is compared to it, it is also grossly
evil to not stand in the gap (defense, although not necessarily passive,
because if there's a hole in the wall and you have to stand there to
keep the enemy out, you will have to do a heck of a lot of fighting,
because much of the enemy's forces will concentrate on breaching these
weakest parts of the defense and so you must do the fiercest and most
ferocious fighting there).
By lying and decieving Israel, they did not help them any when they most
needed it--they needed to repent, and they needed someone to tell them
and to lead the way to repentence, but the prophets did not, and so
figuratively they did not stand in the gap for Israel, but also
literally when the judgment, ie, sword, came, neither did they stand in
the literal gaps.
This also ties together 2 ideas--repentence and fighting off an attack:
the two are compared indirectly:
literally: the nation was supposed to repent and the prophets lead them
in it and to it;
figuratively: the nation--once the judgment fell--was supposed to defend
itself, and the prophets lead them in it and lead them to battle.
When 2 ideas are compared like this, each idea sheds light on the other
as to the character of each, and the moral appropriateness, etc. This is
one way the people came to understand things: God compared what they
were doing or what they should have done to things that were understood
by all of them and which they could relate to, like Jesus did when he
told his parables. Since repentence is excellent, so is fighting of this
Actually this comparison is the other way around--the assumption is the
prophets know how utterly evil it is to not stand and fight when the
city and nation are under attack--and he compares this known gross evil
to the similar evil of lying to Israel--to try to show them the
heinousness of their sins, to try to show them the great destruction
caused to the nation, the city, and the people by their sin.
People these days are rather the other way around: they are in the dark
about the moral appropriateness of fighting, but they know for sure that
not repenting and lying are terrible evils, and so for us the analogy
works in reverse, but it is just as valid in either direction.
10. Because, even because they have seduced my people,
saying, Peace; and [there was] no peace; and one built up a
wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered [morter]:
No peace for the wicked (those who break God's law, harm the innocent,
sin, etc) or for those who do things that will supposedly bring peace,
but not according to God's will--the lying prophets did this.
Each one had a hand in leading the nation astray--perhaps the wall is a
false sense of security they gave Israel by making them trust in
something (peace: wall) that could not stand when a nation does not
follow after God, they will not have peace no matter what they do, guns
or no guns.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon
them that have daubed it with untempered [morter], and will
say unto you, The wall [is] no [more], neither they that
16 [To wit], the prophets of Israel which prophesy
concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for
her, and [there is] no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
No peace, and those who say there will be peace anger God.
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the [women]
that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon
the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the
souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive [that
come] unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of
barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that
should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not
live, by your lying to my people that hear [your] lies?
It is wrong to keep alive those who should die, and to kill those who
18 It is wrong to have anything to do with evil--they didn't hunt souls,
but they did something for those who did (???did they?).
19 Liberals are pretty good at this--they disarm the innocent so they
can be killed--and don't punish by death or imprisonment those criminals
who should be, and allow those criminals to cause more destruction to
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the
righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened
the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his
wicked way, by promising him life:
Don't strengthen the hand of the wicked, don't make it easy and possible
to commit evil, to harm the innocent, to continue in his evil ways, to
save his life when he should die.
In the case of the prophets, they told lies which helped the evil and
saddened the righteous, but there are other ways to strengthen the
wicked and weaken the righteous. Legislators can pass laws that do this.
Spokeswomen for groups (Sarah Brady) can tell lies that do the same.
Libertarians can scoff at God's word even though they might agree with
the part about being armed and defending the innocent, but what they
don't see is that the sin they defend brings about a great deal of
destruction, and also brings about the tyrants who do the things they
Don't turn him from God's word and the judgment it warns about and the
repentence it requires of him.
17 Or [if] I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword,
go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from
18 Though these three men [were] in it, [as] I live, saith
the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters,
but they only shall be delivered themselves.
19 Or [if] I send a pestilence into that land, and pour
out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and
20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I
live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor
daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their
21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send
my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the
famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut
off from it man and beast?
Even the most righteous will not always be protected in their family if
their family is wicked. In this case they would have lost their entire
family, and that is not what most people consider being protected by
When a land is so completely full of wickedness like Israel was, even
having righteous people in it will not help--the only cure is
repentence. What did God chide them for most? Idolatry, forsaking him,
and shedding innocent blood. We must 1. turn to God, 1a. repent of
innocent blood, 2. Stop the shedding of innocent blood, 2a. deal with
those who shed it.
[Isa-Je20] [Je21-Eze] [Ez16-Jn8] [Jn10-Phlp] [Col3-Rev] [Misc] [New]
(c) November 4, 1995, May 31, 1996 David C. Treibs. All rights reserved./html /body