(c) 1996, 1997 David C. Treibs, sirdavid@ktc.com

This page contains verse by verse commentary for Colossians 3 - Revelation, detailing what the Bible says about owning and using guns. It also contains Miscellaneous Comments, and Various Arguments and Refutations.

Colossians 3:3
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in
God.

Colossians 3:5
5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil
concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Colossians 3:5
Even though the law is fulfilled there are still things we must do. We
must do our part.
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This particular evil we must put away that is within us, part of our
nature, etc. This is a large emphasis in the NT, to put away our own old
man. Also, we are to help our neighbor do the same. The
stay-in-your-home-with-your-religion pietists stop here. And yet also
there is evil outside us, in others, in society, etc that we are also to
deal with.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own
business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded
you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without,
and [that] ye may have lack of nothing.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
we have to work at fulfilling God's will. it's God's will, but we have to work
to fulfill it.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
We must be sure to have the correct attitude and demeanor, not like
Rambo, not loud, proud, menacing, swaggering, aggressive (unduly so,
sometimes you have to be very aggressive to win a fight), etc, but
humbled, quite, etc, like Nehemiah.
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11 "do your own business," mind your own business or continue to manage
your responsibilities.
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"work with your own hands," can't just be "spiritual," you have to work
and sweat and labor.
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12 We can't depend on others to care for us--we can't go around lacking
things and expect others to take care of us, or we might not be able to
walk honestly (like pacifists and others who expect others to fight for
their country, to protect them from criminals, etc) before them that are
without. I suspect this includes anything we might need to carry on our
lives, including protecting ourselves and our families and others. This
is also a good verse against Christians recieving welfare.

1 Timothy 4:5
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1 Timothy 4:5
What "word" is he referring to? OT? His letters? Both?

1 Timothy 4:13
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to
exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:13
Reading what? OT? His letters? Both?

1 Timothy 5:3-11
3. Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them
learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their
parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth
in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night
and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she
liveth.
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be
blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for
those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is
worse than an infidel.
9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under
threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up
children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed
the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she
have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun
to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

1 Timothy 5:3-11
Trust God to feed the old and widows and the hungry, but there are specific
things we must do to make God's will come true--if we don't, these people will
suffer, and God's will will be hindered.

Yes, it's God's will that the hungry be fed and yes we should trust him to
provide, but it's up to us to do all we can., and that is how God provides:
through us, not inspite of our inaction. Inaction and unpreparedness do not
equal trusting God. Doing nothing when it's in our power to do so isn't faith
or trust; it's fatalism and simplmindedness. God's will is fulfilled though
our actions, through our hands. We are his body to do his work.

Provide for your own (food) or are worse than an infidel, trust God but still
do our part or suffer the consequences (see Proverbs), also we have an
obligation to meet the physical needs of those we responsible for, if not, we
really bad, if Bible OK's defense, protection is one of those things we are
responsible for providing.

1 Timothy 6:17
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be
not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the
living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1 Timothy 6:17
Tell the rich not to trust riches but God--same for guns, trust God, but use
them. Use of God given tools.
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Notice, he didn't say to dump their riches or give it all to the poor.
He said, don't be high minded. The things of this world are not evil,
all the things Jesus said about rich people notwithstanding, remember,
he also said with God all things are possible (rich enter heaven). With
God's help and lots of humility, we can handle the things of this world.
That includes weapons and other non-gospel related items. We just have
to be careful, because "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye
of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Riches tend to puff up
and make one self-dependent instead of God-dependent. Weapons can do the
same.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be
gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the
acknowledging of the truth;
26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare
of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
If this is referring to physical conflict it is absolute, because no
exceptions are mentioned (remember, though, to compare scripture with
scripture)--you can't participate in war, self-defense, or if your wife
or daughter or mother is being abused, raped, beaten, etc, you may not
intervene (perhaps also may not intervene to defend unborn babies, which
OR might object to). Otherwise, if the above pacifism isn't true, then
it is because you must take other scriptures into account,and compare
scripture, and then you will have the entire picture, and you will know
that you can be physically aggressive. Also, this scripture does not
negate everything else, else the scriptures are contradictory, and you
are deciding which part is true. Actually, there is a time and a season
for everything.
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These verses are discussing the attitude and the job of a servant. He's
not giving him an exhaustive list of everything he is required to do,
which also precludes anything not listed. He doesn't mention anything
about feeding or clothing the hungry, working with his own hands (I Thes
4:11-12) or the other requirements of a bishop/minister, and so there is
no need to have a heart attack if he doesn't mention self-defense.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy
scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation
through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and
[is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished
unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
The OT I think--see 2 Peter 1:20.
This sounds like the OT, depending on where this book (Tim) was written,
because if Timothy has heard this when he was young, if he was around
Christ's time, it would be the OT.

Hebrews 1:5-6,8-13
Hebrews 1:5-6
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou
art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will
be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into
the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship
him.
Hebrews 1:8-13
8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for
ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre
of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;
therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the
oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the
foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of
thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all
shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they
shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall
not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on
my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 1:5-6,8-13
OT verses speaking of Christ.

Hebrews 2:6-8
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is
man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that
thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou
crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over
the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet.
For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left
nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet
all things put under him.

Hebrews 2:6-8
OT verses speaking of Christ.

Hebrews 2:12-13
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in
the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again,
Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Hebrews 2:12-13
Point about God's children.

Hebrews 3:7-11
7. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will
hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the
day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my
works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said,
They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known
my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my
rest.)

Hebrews 3:7-11
OT point about not forsaking God.

Hebrews 3:15-4:1
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice,
harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not
all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not
with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the
wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into
his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of
unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us]
of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come
short of it.

Hebrews 3:15-4:1
OT point about not forsaking God

Hebrews 4:3-8
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he
said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into
my rest: although the works were finished from the
foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on
this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his
works.
5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my
rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter
therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not
in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To
day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will
hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not
afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:3-8
OT point about God's rest.

Hebrews 5:4-6,10
Hebrews 5:4-6
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that
is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high
priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day
have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest
for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:10
10. Called of God an high priest after the order of
Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:4-6,10
OT point that God called Christ to suffer and to be a priest for us.

Hebrews 6:13-15
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could
swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and
multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the
promise.

Hebrews 6:13-15
OT example of God's promises.

Hebrews 7:1
1. For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most
high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of
the kings, and blessed him;

Hebrews 7:1
Melchisedec blessed Abraham after he slaughtered the kings and received
a tithe from the spoil--if it were bloody money he would not have--and
Melchisedec was God (v.3). It was as if to say, way to go, bud, knock'em
dead.
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When Melchesedec met him, it was as when a king or the people go out
joyfully to meet a returning victorious general, and the general
generously bestows some of the booty on those he favors.
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Abraham had armed men who were trained privately and armed privately and
organized privately and went out and did their own thing simply because
there was a need at hand and they were prepared to handle it--Abraham
forsaw the evil and prepared for it, and then when he saw the need, he
acted.

Hebrews 6:20-7:18
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus,
made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:1-18
1. For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most
high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of
the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first
being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after
that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having
neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like
unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even
the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who
receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to
take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of
their brethren, though they come out of the loins of
Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received
tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the
better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he
[receiveth them], of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes,
payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when
Melchisedec met him.
11. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical
priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what
further need [was there] that another priest should rise
after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the
order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of
necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to
another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the
similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment,
but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after
the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment
going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrews 6:20-7:18
Explaining Christ's work by using the OT.

Hebrews 8:5
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly
things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to
make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make
all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the
mount.

Hebrews 8:5
OT scripture to prove that God has a tabernacle in heaven.

Hebrews 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days
come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with
the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their
fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them
out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my
covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put
my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and
I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and
every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall
know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and
their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the
first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready
to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:8-13
OT covenant is flawed and will be replaced, but the OT is not passed
away.

Hebrews 9:2-15
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein
[was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread;
which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is
called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant
overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot
that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables
of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the
mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests
went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the
service [of God].
7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once
every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself,
and [for] the errors of the people:
8. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the
holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first
tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which
were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make
him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the
conscience;
10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers
washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the
time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to
come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made
with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his
own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having
obtained eternal redemption [for us].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes
of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the
purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through
the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living
God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new
testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the
transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they
which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance.

Hebrews 9:2-15
Christ's covenant was much better and cleansed us much deeper--all the
way--than the old.

Hebrews 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 9:22
This is taken to be a truth expounded on the OT

Hebrews 9:16-17
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of
necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead:
otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator
liveth.

Hebrews 9:16-17
The point.

Hebrews 9:18-22
18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated
without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the
people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and
of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and
sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God
hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle,
and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 9:18-22
The proof for the point--from the OT (It is important to remember that
he was talking to Jews, and naturally he would use whatever they would
accept, meaning their scriptures, however, that doesn't mean those
scriptures weren't valid, as the poems of those heathens where-ever they
were when Paul was trying to make a point about God, I think it was
about creation or about the unknown God.

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:27
It was appointed in Gen 3:19--a reference to the OT that is still
true.

Hebrews 10:7
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is
written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:7
The book is the OT.

Hebrews 10:8-9
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt
offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither
hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He
taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 10:8-9
An OT quote.

Hebrews 10:14-17
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them
that are sanctified.
15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for
after that he had said before,
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after
those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their
hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:14-17
Uses the OT to prove that Christ's work is forever. (Naturally, the
whole Bible is about Christ, and just because something about Christ is
from the OT, that doesn't mean that the rest of the OT is also just as
pertinent. YOu'd do well to not use OT references to Christ that are
valid as proof that the rest is valid. Best focus on other evidences,
such as references to the "scriptures" and to the fathers and so on that
are not directly connected to Christ.)

Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth]
unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The
Lord shall judge his people.
31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the
living God.

Hebrews 10:30-31
31 Is the point, 30 is the proof taken from the OT.

Hebrews 10:1-17
1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come,
[and] not the very image of the things, can never with those
sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make
the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered?
because that the worshippers once purged should have had no
more conscience of sins.
3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again
[made] of sins every year.
4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of
goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast
thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast
had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is
written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt
offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither
hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He
taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the
offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and
offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never
take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for
sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his
footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them
that are sanctified.
15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for
after that he had said before,
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after
those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their
hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:1-17
The law was the shadow of things to come, in that Christ would do away
with sin once and forever.

Hebrews 10:18-25
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more
offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the
holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for
us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of
faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience,
and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without
wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love
and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as
the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so
much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:18-25
Because of the work of Christ, which has led us into the holy of Holies,
we can boldly come before God, therefore let us be pure and do what's
right.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice
for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under
two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was
sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the
Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth]
unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The
Lord shall judge his people.
31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the
living God.

Hebrews 10:26-31
Don't sin after coming to know Christ, or else--the OT people had it
bad, we have it worse.

Hebrews 11:1-40
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed
by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not
made of things which do appear.
4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent
sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he
was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he
being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see
death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
for before his translation he had this testimony, that he
pleased God.
6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and
[that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as
yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his
house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir
of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a
place which he should after receive for an inheritance,
obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a
strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and
Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose
builder and maker [is] God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to
conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was
past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as
dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as
the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the
promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded
of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were
strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they
seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country]
from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity
to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an
heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their
God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:
and he that had received the promises offered up his only
begotten [son],
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be
called:
19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even
from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things
to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the
sons of Joseph; and worshipped, [leaning] upon the top of
his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the
departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment
concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months
of his parents, because they saw [he was] a proper child;
and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to
be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of
God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than
the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the
recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the
king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling
of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch
them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry
[land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they
were compassed about seven days.
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that
believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me
to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of]
Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the
prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought
righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of
lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the
sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in
fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and
others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they
might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and
scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted,
were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins
and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in
deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the
earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through
faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they
without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11:1-40
All those named throughout it, and then 11:33-40 lists all the things
they did--some fought, some did not, but they did what they did through
faith (33), some escaped, some didn't try to escape, some were
delivered, some were not (35).
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Each one of them was different in what they did and what happened to
them, but God accepted them because they acted in faith and did not
displease God in what they did, at least in the deeds God blessed.
%
the elders, Abel, Enoch, he that cometh to God, Noah, Abraham, Sarah,
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Moses' parents, walls of Jerico (Joshua and
Israel), Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the
prophets.
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Militant ones:
Abraham, Joshua, Moses (commander in chief who sent them out on several
missions, btw, he was the meekest man ever), Gideon, Samson, David,
Barak (general who fought with Sisera when Jael killed Sis), Jephthah.
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Their sins are not commended, but the righteousness they committed in
faith is. They did some doosers. Jephthah sacrificed his daughter,
Gideon committed idolatry, Sampson fornicated, David adulterated.
%
33 The listed deeds refer to all the above names.
%
33-39 This is a brief run through of the rest of the OT.
%
33 "stopped the mouths of lions" Sampson, David, Daniel
34 "Quenched the violence of fire" Daniel's friends (law breakers)
"were made strong" Nehemiah, Esther, etc
37 the prophets?
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"escaped" low level of resistance
"were made strong"
"waxed valiant" high level of resistance
"turned...armies" (several did this)
"not accepting deliverance" lower still level of resistance--not bowing
but not escaping
%
Hebrews 11:34
Valiant in fight, referring to some OT heros who were vailant warriors like
David, Hezekiah, Josiah, Joshua to war used their own weapons, they were
faithful while using weapons and killing, they trusted God while using weapons
and killing. Not sure which of these warriors Hebrews' author commends but
whoever, it's clear the NT doesn't condemn armed conflict and doesn't uplife,
uphold, glorify, praise pacifism.
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Daniel's friends, ?, ?, many warriors in the OT did this, and they were
praised for fighting and destroying the enemy, and destroying the invading
armies. Apparently God applauds those who fight with the bad guys valiantly,
and he applauds those who stop the wicked from harming his people, as in he
would applaud a father or mother for attacking a robber to protect the
family.

Hebrews 12:5
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh
unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the
chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of
him:

Hebrews 12:5
OT verse to remain faithful and despise not God's chastening.

James 2:8
8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

James 2:8
The scripture = OT.
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Jesus also quoted this.

James 2:21,23-26
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he
had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:23-26
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham
believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and
not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by
works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent
[them] out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith
without works is dead also.

James 2:21,23-26
Refers to OT example to prove NT principle about faith.
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26 "Faith without works is dead;" I used this quote in several
places.

James 4:1-2
1. From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come
they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your
members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and
cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye
ask not.

James 4:1-2
Wars and fighting come from lust--not sure if literal or figurative, but
agrees with what Jesus said, and James didn't say wars and fightings come from
guns. He didn't say put away your weapons (guns), he said put away your lust.
Of course, he also didn't say put away your porno.
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It is also indicated that because their motives were unpure, so were
their deeds based on them, because their deeds were attempts to fulfill
their evil lusts. But that doesn't mean that wars and fighting are
always bad, else God is schitzophrenic, because he just finished in Heb
11 commending many warriors. But, if we war and fight for lust or other
sin's sake, we _will_ be wrong. If we want the big R so we can pillage
and rape and do whatever we want, then God condemns that motive and the
actions to fulfill it.

James 4:5-6
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit
that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God
resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:5-6
OT scripture to prove NT point about lust, envy, pride, and
humility.

James 4:8-10
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse
[your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye]
double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be
turned to mourning, and [your] joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he
shall lift you up.

James 4:8-10
Are any of these OT verses?

James 5:6
6 Ye have condemned [and] killed the just; [and] he doth
not resist you.

James 5:6
An example of someone who doesn't resist evil.
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We know of many OT and several NT verses where people, including Jesus
in one instance, resisted being condemned, and where NT people resisted
being killed at various levels (fleeing Jerusalem; hiding; Paul escaped,
offered a legal defense, used his Roman citizenship, etc).

James 5:10-11
10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the
name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction,
and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard
of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord;
that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

James 5:10-11
OT examples to follow in patience and endurance.

James 5:17-18
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and
he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained
not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the
earth brought forth her fruit.

James 5:17-18
OT example of praying.

1 Peter 1:10-12
10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and
searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that
should come] unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of
Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified
beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that
should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves,
but unto us they did minister the things, which are now
reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto
you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things
the angels desire to look into.

1 Peter 1:10-12
The prophets--apparently they are not completely irrelevant even to "the
strangers" (v.1), ie non-Jews, which some might be led to argue that
because of what Paul said for the non-Jews to follow were relatively few
requirements--no fornication, no blood, nothing strangled, and some
might say that precluded them from the rest of the OT, including
the parts wherein fighting and weapons are mentioned.

1 Peter 1:15-16
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy
in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 1:15-16
Be holy, even as it is written in the OT--a commandment, given, and
recall, when the law was given, which they still must follow--perhaps
every example and commandment of the OT is not invalidated by Christ.
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But also remember the requirements of the Gentiles, as noted in I Pet
1:10-12. I think Peter was writing to Jews, but to me that is
irrelevant, God has broken the wall between the outer and inner court (?
is that accurate?) between Gentiles and Jews.

1 Peter 1:19
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:19
A lamb--OT allusion.

1 Peter 1:25
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is
the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:25
Semi-quote of OT verse? Is 40:8

1 Peter 2:6
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he
that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 2:6
The scripture--about Christ.

1 Peter 2:23
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he
suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him
that judgeth righteously:

1 Peter 2:23
Another side of the coin.
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He suffered in a non-resistant manner, and spoke up only once or twice.
Remember that Paul resisted more, although he too suffered quite a bit
anyway. He resisted to the extent that he effectively could (sometimes
illegally, I think, in escaping, etc) and what he could not stop, he
accepted and used as suffering for Christ and for God's glory. This is a
good example for us to follow. In our country, our law (Dec of Ind,
Const, etc) enumerates for us more rights than most countries have to
resist evil, even by force, although everyone has this right from God,
but few have it enshrined in their law.

1 Peter 3:13-18
13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers
of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy
[are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be
troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be]
ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh
you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and
fear:
16. Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil
of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely
accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye
suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just
for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to
death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:13-18
God will help you, but if you do suffer for righteousness sake, don't
be troubled, but be ready to answer, and you are in good company,
because Christ also suffered.
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Here should be our attitude toward suffering, if we can't stop it or
avoid it. Actually, there's quite a bit of evil that cannot be stopped
by force, and we might have to take it with grace, naturally, doing all
we can to stop it or dampen its effects.
%
1 Our attitude toward suffering--sometimes we can't escape it and we
just have to take it.
%
2 When you resist, be sure lust is not involved--lust to do what you
want (when the big R hits), to have power, etc.

1 Peter 4:1-4
1. Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the
flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he
that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in
the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have
wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in
lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings,
banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4. Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with
[them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:

1 Peter 4:1-4
Further explanation of Christ's suffering, and for the reason to put
away sin, and the lust of the flesh, which we should also do.

1 Peter 4:14-16
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are
ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on
their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is
glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a
thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's
matters.
16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be
ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:14-16
Reproach--not physical abuse. But there are plenty of examples of
physical abuse.

1 Peter 4:19
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of
God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well
doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1 Peter 4:19
Could be anything. Here's our attitude, not that we don't have to take
it or that we are mad at God for allowing it or we think life or God is
unfair, or why me, or I don't have to take this, we do the best we can
and commend ourselves to God, as did those in Heb 11 who weren't quite
so successful as Abraham or David or Daniel, and were sawn asunder,
etc.

1 Peter 5:5
5. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.
Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed
with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace
to the humble.

1 Peter 5:5
Our attitude--no Rambo--the mailed, bended knee of the humbled
servant-soldier.

2 Peter 1:17-21
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
when there came such a voice to him from the excellent
glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we
were with him in the holy mount.
19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye
do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a
dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in
your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture
is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of
man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the
Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:17-21
The OT scriptures are a more sure witness than God's voice from
heaven.
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There is 1 interpretation of scripture--God's version--and it is
our responsibility to find it, to search the scriptures.
%
It doesn't matter what we feel, or, like Nan said, God hasn't given her
peace about guns. Sorry, your feelings are irrelevant--God's word,
properly interpreted (scripture compared with scripture) is what
counts.

2 Peter 2:4-9
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast
[them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of
darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth
[person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood
upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes
condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an
ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7. And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy
conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing
and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with
[their] unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of
temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of
judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 2:4-9
Using OT scriptures to make points about God destroying those who do not
follow the truth (2-4) and (9) God knows how to deliver the just.

2 Peter 2:14-16
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease
from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have
exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray,
following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved
the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking
with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2 Peter 2:14-16
Example of evil people from the OT.
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Gun toting Libertarians who love the Constitution but not God's word or
morals better take heed--destruction and tyranny are nipping at their
heels.

2 Peter 3:4-6
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for
since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they
were] from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the
word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing
out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with
water, perished:

2 Peter 3:4-6
Refers to OT (creation and the flood).

2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new
heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:13
OT promise that we Christians await (?).

1 John 3:5
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our
sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 3:5
Why he came--we can't be like him in every aspect.

3 John 1:5
5 Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to
the brethren, and to strangers;

3 John 1:5
You do faithfully whatever you do both to brothers and strangers--we
can't just help the brethren and forget the rest--we owe it equally to
our neighbors (as the Samaritan).

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of
these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of
his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that
are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they
have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches]
which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 1:14-15
Is this in the OT? In any event, it is pre-grace truth that is quoted as
still being true.

Revelation 2:20
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth
herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to
commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Revelation 2:20
It was legal for Jezebel to seduce Christians, but God was angry w/
Christians for not interfering with Jezebel's notions.
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On the other hand, he was pleased with what Jehu did--which was probably
illegal. I don't know if the queen was also considered "the anointed" as
was the king.

Revelation 6:2
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on
him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went
forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 6:2
God is militant.

Revelation 6:4
4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and
[power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from
the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there
was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 6:4
The devil's armies have swords. That means the good, the bad, and the ugly are
armed, and the only complaint is that nobody has killed off all the wicked,
not that everyone needs to turn in their weapons to the king or the
police.

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels
fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his
angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any
more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent,
called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole
world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were
cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7-9
As long as there is evil, even in a perfect place like heaven, there
will be war because the evil will seek to overthrow and subdue and spoil
and sullen the good, but the good will resist, fight, and throw off the
evil, and will fight until evil is totally defeated and unable to do
anything. We should do like the angels--do the best we can to run it off
so there is no place for it, and remove it from our realm or sphere of
influence to the furtherest extent we are able.
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The war is now transferred to the earth.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to
make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:17
The devil seeks out the good (and perhaps also the innocent, helpless,
etc?) to war against it.
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There will never be peace on earth as long as the devil is around.

Revelation 13:7,15
Revelation 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them: and power was given him over all
kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:15
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the
beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and
cause that as many as would not worship the image of the
beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 13:10
Apparently talking about the beast (13:1) who would make war against the
saints and prevail against them (v. 7). Doesn't necessarily mean that all
those who use a sword will be killed with a sword.
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The patience of the saints--what they can hang on to in the darkest
hours, and their faith, what they can trust in, is that the beast who
captures them will himself someday be led captive, and the beast who
kills them all the day long will be himself one day killed with the
sword.

Revelation 13:7,15
Same as 12:17?
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*********Following verses demonstrate immediately following pt*******
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God has not always and will not always give us a successful defense or
even an escape--in the end he will (?) give the devil free reign to kill
us as he pleases (?) (according to JV McGee).
...
God will not always rescue us nor give us victory.

Revelation 6:9-10
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the
altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O
Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our
blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:9-10
These are calling for vengeance against the ungodly--guess it couldn't be
that bad (they are asking God to do it, mind you, but then again, we are
God's hands down here, eh?, although, we don't really want to be
involved in judging people, and end up on the receiving end ourselves
for the same reasons those who had a hand in judging Israel also ended
up on the receiving end for what they did).

Revelation 11:3-7
3. And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they
shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days,
clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks
standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of
their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man
will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the
days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn
them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as
often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the
beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make
war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:3-7
God will protect these for awhile, and then will stop--perhaps God will
do that with us--protect us while we are doing his work, and then when
we are finished, he will remove his protection. Is that perhaps what he
did with Josiah?

Revelation 12:3-4,6
Revelation 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold
a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and
seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before
the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her
child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a
place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a
thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Revelation 12:3-4,6
God helped the woman escape.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by
the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives
unto the death.

Revelation 12:11
God helped them, or at least lent them his power, but they did not
always succeed, or more specifically, they did not succeed in remaining
alive, doubtless their mission was successful.

Revelation 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them: and power was given him over all
kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:7
The beast makes war, and overcomes the saints. Doesn't say if they
resist or not, but if they have to be overcome, that implies they are
doing something, at least they are trying to escape. I should think if
he makes war, then they resist, but he wins, but it doesn't say if that
involves physical fighting. I don't think it means spiritually, because
then they would go to the devil's side, or at least quit working for
Christ's side, which is not an option and is not possible.
%
Or, spiritually could be in the Frank Peretti sense, all their prayers
and spiritual efforts are overcome, and the angels don't win this one,
and the dark cloud triumphs, and the evil plot is unstoppable.
%
In any event, the beast is a physical creature, and conducts war, which
probably at least to some extent involves physical action, and so it
might follow that the resistance the saints offer is physical
(especially since he physically kills multitudes of them) to some
extent, even if it's only the lowest levels of resistance--not giving in
to his evil wishes to reject Christ, or escaping.
%
I think the beast does more than just pray to the devil and send him
running around, and the saints do more than just pray to God and invoke
his power.

Revelation 13:16-17
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and
poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand,
or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the
mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:16-17
Keeps believers from buying and selling. God allows him to do this to
Christians.

Revelation 13:10,14:9-12
Revelation 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud
voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and
receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his
indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and
brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the
presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever
and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship
the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of
his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 13:10,14:9-12
The saints will endure suffering (Matthew 26:52) because they will remember
several things: the beast and those who destroy Christians will likewise
die (13:10), and, God's wrath will be poured out upon those who turn
from God.

Revelation 16:6,17:6,18:24,19:2,18:20
Revelation 16:6
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and
thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Revelation 17:6
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the
saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when
I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Revelation 18:24
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of
saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Revelation 19:2
2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath
judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her
fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at
her hand.
Revelation 18:20
20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles
and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation 16:6,17:6,18:24,19:2,18:20
God will have to avenge this one.

Revelation 19:16,19-21
Revelation 19:16
16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name
written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:19-21
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and
their armies, gathered together to make war against him that
sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived
them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that
worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake
of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that
sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his
mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:16,19-21
Only Christ can win this one.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were
beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a
thousand years.

Revelation 20:4
Awful lot of saints defeated in the war here. No victory in this one for
us on the physical side. Any victories will be treasures in heaven, no
fruits of victory will be evident on earth. If there's any victory at
all in any earthly sense it might be to be a witness to the lost.
%
The "victorious life" people will have a hard time here, as will anyone
who thinks God will protect them all the time, as will anyone who thinks
God will allow them to fight successfully all the time.

Revelation 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be
loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the
four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them
together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of
the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and
compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved
city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and
devoured them.

Revelation 20:7-9
God fights this one.

Revelation 21:7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will
be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:7
That could mean overcome by being killed for not going with the devil's
program.
%
*************************end point started
above***********************

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of
the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these
things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written
in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the
book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of
the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the
things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:18-19
Be careful. If what I'm saying is adding, woe is me, but if anyone says
this is not true, and it is (guns, etc) you are taking away from what is
in the book, and whatever it means, God will do it to you (remove your
name), so be careful not to jump on any particular bandwagon, and see
who has some or all of the truth.
%
===
%
Nations and kings must do such and such things to please God, we
constitute the nation and the king, and by doing nothing we are doing
wrong or allowing wrong, which is also wrong.

***********************************

Miscellaneous Comments

If you condemn personal self-defense (because use of force is involved) must
also condemn national defense, because both involve use of force to defend.
Unless you build some sort of case that nations have the right to self-defense
but individuals don't; don't think I ever heard that one. Check out the
Sunday school lesson on war, wherein they say gov'ts may bear (Rom 13)
the sword but not individuals.

Trust God for food, but work, go to store, prepare food. Healing: trust God,
but go to doctor, birth babies at hospital, use Tylenol instead of trusting
God in the sense that you do nothing and excuse that as
"trust."

Holy Spirit convicts sinners, no one can come to God unless he draws them,
everyone already has a witness within themselves (rom 1) and will be condemned
even if they are never told and have the chance to be saved without being
told, but we still tell them, missionaries do all in their power, trust God to
give the increase.

We must defend other innocents, if we don't stand up, they will be
hurt.

Don't trust the weapon, make it a demi-god like the movies do or a demi-devil
like the liberals and the media do.

If feelings conflict with the Bible, feelings are wrong. If think God is
telling something conflicting with the word, thinking is wrong, because if
even an angel tells you something contrary to the Bible, you aren't to heed
them, don't remove or add one jot or tittle; God's word stands above all other
sources--our will or thoughts or biases or impressions or feelings or what
others say including angels and visions.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, but when
those principalities attack through the flesh, we must defend accordingly,
when they attack through gov't, we must counter through gov't--exert our
power, and meet every attack of the enemy on that level (Peter Spencer,
CrossCurrents, about Oct 8, 92).

Good and innocence has the inherent, God given right to triumph and protect
itself from evil, as long as it does no evil in so doing.

We have the priviledge of using weapons and lethal force.

Take pleasure in the Lord's work and then he will prosper you in the other
things you do--as a nation, the economy will improve, presumably also their
defenses will improve, the criminals won't prosper.

Violence is not evil. as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men (is
that in the context of friendship, or physical conflict).

Evil comes from the heart, not from objects, environment, etc; sin is a heart
condition not environment (remember arguments against porno, it is sinful in
itself, weapons are not, it is designed to produce lust--which is a sin in
itself, weapons can be used for good or bad).
%
Pornography is a display of nakedness, which is sinful already. The
purpose is to inspire lust, which is also wrong. Only in marriage are
you able to look upon the nakedness of someone, and then it is
beautiful.

Self defense is not wrong but a God given right and
responsibility.

Right and wrong, sin and innocence, good and evil are absolute; right is
defensible against wrong by any Biblical means including violence.

Christians goof on the gun issue when they fail to distinguish between
trusting in guns and using them.

Paul's tent sewing--he did what he had to do to make it in the world
even while being a full time missionary--in our time what have to do
quite a few things to make it, and we can still do these as actions
supporting the spread of the gospel.

Cause Effect.
If you don't repair the walls and trim the vines and plow and sow, you
will have a run down vineyard--be called a sloth--not a spiritual person
because you expected God to do the work--same for hay field, even though
not specifically mentioned hay--same for all other areas of life.
This tells us a few thougs--we live in a cause effect world--God expects
us to deal with things on those things' level--both responsive and
pre-emptive.
%
We live in a physical world where cause and effect are the general
rule--one thing causes another. Our physicalness dictates we behave in
certain ways. We have to plant in planting time or we will starve. We
have to come out of the rain or we will be wet and cold and could
contract sickness. If we don't eat properly or eat the wrong stuff or
improper quantities we will become ill, weak, or die.
Because of sin, bad things happen, earthquakes, droughts, tornadoes,
mudslides, volcanos, etc.--each of these and others require certain
types of reactive and preventative measures (see Pvbs) for us to
survive.
There are many threats to our existence which we must deal with by
appropriate measures--over or under doing it will cause us not to
survive or will waste valuble energy and resources that we will need for
other endeavors.

Results of Our Efforts are Temporary--We Must never Slacken our Work.
The land had rest 40 (xx) years...while (yy) was alive--the results are
only temporary, if at all, and the victories will be limited in the
scope of area, effectiveness, length of time it lasts, # of people
helped, nevertheless, we are called to do it because it is right, not
because of the assurance of any particular results. You might succeed
today only to see the results turned around tomorrow, or to end up a
victim as much as those we are trying to help.

Our Attitude.
Pp 2:3
No vain glory, no strife; don't do what you for vain glory--not to draw
attention, not to build a name--just be God's servant and to quietly do
his work for his blessings and his rewards and not necessarily for any
recognition or reward from anyone else--not for strife--might have
strife heaped on us, but don't have a strife or belligerant attitude.
Pp 2:14
No mumering or complaining.
Pp 2:15
Be blameless and harmless and unrebukable--keep a clean heart and a
clean vocabulary, a clean life.

Egypt had 7 good years and 7 bad years. The 7 good years was
specifically designed by God to allow Joseph to prepare for the famine.
The only really noteworthy thing there was that God told him when the
bad was going to happen and how to prepare for it.
We aren't quite able to forsee what will happen in the future, but we
can still take advantage of present circumstances to prepare what could
possibly happen in the future, and we can look at the past to see what
others have had to face and what they needed to prepare for it, and then
we can do similarly.

More examples of the reap/sow, cause/effect, physical nature of the
universe and that God _expects_ us to live, prepare, and respond
accordingly--Jesus himself acknowledged this when he said build your
house on a rock and not sand and if you build on sand "great will be the
ruin of it," not, God will keep you(r house) from falling, or he will
keep you safe, etc. Also Proverbs(?), look diligently to the state of
your flocks, etc.

It is not that bad, because good will come of it. God will return
sooner; an indirect way we can indirectly control the return of
Christ--allowing more and more evil--proper attitude is Pvb 24:11 ("if
thou forbear to deliver")--their blood is on our hands and on our nation
and we will reap the fruit of their sins they sow).
%
William N. Podaris of Tabernacle of God in North Carolina said the
Baptist Association or some such group of religious folks wanted his
help to close down strip joints or whatever sin houses they were, but he
said, no, let them build a whole bunch of them and fill the town with
them, because then Christ would come sooner, or that would mean Christ
would come soon.
%
I don't think God has a murder quotient or sin quotient that, when it's
filled, he will return. He will return at the "appointed day." If there
are more murders and strip joints, it is because we allowed them, and it
has nothing to do with Christ's return.
%
The premise is to do evil that good may come, or slightly modified, let
us allow evil that good (Christ's return) may come, or at least don't be
alarmed by it (and perhaps do something about it).
%
(do evil) (good)
%
Let us _________________ that ________________ may come.
%
sin God forgive sin
%
Do we decide between "God is able to work things out for good" and "let
us do evil that good may come." Is this to say, sin isn't all that bad
because God will bring something good out of it, or is it so horribly
evil that Jesus had to die for it, but in spite of the terribleness of
it, God can bring something good of it. This is a tribute to God's
incredible power and grace, not to the weakness of sin's total
destructiveness and evilness. Our question is then, do we stop it, or
do we allow it.
%
Work it out for good...
%
It isn't that bad,
so why have a cow?

It killed Jesus, it kills us,
sends billions of people to hell,
destroys nations, brought the curse
upon the earth and all humanity
%
A preacher or teacher might respond that he doesn't teach passivity in
the face of tyranny or doing nothing in the face of evil or inaction or
practicing tolerance (by doing nothing) while speaking against it, but
then every time or most of the time the subject of evil comes up, is his
response, well, all the sooner Christ will come, or, it's the end times
and what else do you expect, or, it's going to happen no matter what
because it's the end times, or whatever, or is it, we are guilty of
blood and we must stand against and stop this evil, and our inactivity
is complicity and our silent ascent and consent, and our nation will
suffer the consequences of our sins, and Quit you like men, and, Let us
fight for our nation and our families and our houses, and let God do
what seemeth good to him.
%
Christ's return is so soon, no use to do anything (it won't do any good,
it won't have any effect, we don't have time to accomplish anything, God
has given the devil the OK to do whatever he wants, including nullify
whatever we do)--blessed is the servant he finds working when he
returns, be salt and light, occupy till I come, put away the evil from
you, when the righteous rule, the people rejoice, when the wicked rule,
the people mourn, when the wicked perish, there is shouting, the
slothful and evil servant hides his talent in the ground, ie does
nothing with what he has and what he can do, the unproductive tree will
be hewn down, etc.
%
Sin nailed Jesus to the cross, but when we sin, God can bring something
good out of it, but that doesn't mean the sin isn't all that bad and we
don't have to worry too much about avoiding or shunning it because God
can bring good out of it (Rom 7, should we sin that grace may about? God
forbid!), and where sin abounds, grace does much more abound, so to fill
our lives and our world with God's grace, fill both with sin. Then we
can all experience God's grace to the fullest! Right? Wrong!!! "The fear
of the Lord is to HATE evil," not practice it or allow it: abortion,
socialism, gun control, etc are all sin, violate God's principles, etc.
%
--We are commanded to stop what we wisely can ("rescue," put away evil")
--God will judge what is not stopped, we will reap the consequences of
it.
--God's grace is sufficient for what we cannot stop (See Lamentations
last chapter to see God's grace in action, and decide if that's
what you want for you and yours and our nation.)

Our highest priority in life is not to avoid tribulation--it isn't
always bad and we have to be careful in postulating self-defense that we
don't begin to declare war on everything and everyone who might cause us
problems. Persecutions and tribulations are part of being a Christian,
and we have to know and have descernment when to fight and at what level
to resist.

CONTRARY ARGUMENTS AND THEIR REFUTATION

for sirdragonslayer@juno.com; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:30:06 -0500
the INFOGRAM
a publication of Reformation II Ministries

Internet edition, issue R961030 - A

Editor: Dan Gibson
Production: Jim Ketchum
Copy Editor: Melanie Termorshuizen

***** CONTENTS ******

GREETING
LETTERS TO EDITOR
NEWS
ARTICLE . . . . . . . . . . . Dispensationalism -- The Promises of God
FREE CLASSIFIEDS
SUBSCRIPTIONS
____________________________________

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

Don Codling Labels Article "Smelly"

I found interesting your article, "The choice close", and agreed with
its general thrust - that we should not vote for unrighteousness even when
its the best short term choice of those offered.
HOWEVER, there are a couple of assumptions in it that definitely need
some biblical reforming.

...

Then there is the assumption that unrestricted access to weapons is a
Christian plank item. I'm not a gun control advocate, but I think Christians
need to recognize points at which their views go beyond things mandate in
Scripture. (I would suggest that all emphasis on RIGHTS goes beyond what
Scripture says, and probably is contrary to Scripture.) You say of Dole,
"obviously, if he is not for those items, he cannot be called pro-family".
Among "those items" seems to be freedom to own assault weapons. Where in the
Bible are we taught that support for the family requires support of a "right"
to own weapons whose only use is to blast people? I know that the
constitutional right to bear weapons hits a deep chord in American emotions.
But you are making a very loud claim to be a citizen of Christ's kingdom, not
just a citizen of the U.S. That means you have to set aside the emotional
ties of U.S. history, in favour of the true "God's country". In Christ's
kingdom, nothing but the strictest honesty will do.

Dan Gibson responds:

The primary purpose of the article "Choice Close" was to show that
American voters, and more particularly, Christian voters, are being
systematically lied to by both Dole and "Christian" organizations that
endorse him. Therefore, when Dole claims to be for American sovereignty,
ending abortion, lower taxes, gun rights, etc. a look at his voting record
clearly shows otherwise. However, you have attributed beliefs to me that I do
not hold and I believe you may have some errant views as to the what the
Bible (and common sense) says about these issues as well.

...

You also appear to take the position that for a nation or an individual
to seek its own welfare and security is somehow unChristian. However,
stewardship begins with the individual and has its root in self-defense,
since every creature is ordained to defend itself. Even tiny creatures have
claws, teeth and other standard equipment with which to defend itself or
flee. And while animals seek their own defense by God given instinct, men
have the added ability to ponder these concepts in their minds. The depraved
mind, bent on its own destruction, would deny the use of means for
self-defense, but no sane person could. Can we condemn the woman who kicks,
scratches or even shoots a would-be rapist?

Furthermore, unlike animals, men design and make use of tools. Weapons
are tools. And as every man has a duty and obligation to care for the life
God has given him, it follows that he may use tools to defend himself.
Self-defense is *not* an "American" concept; it is as basic, natural and as
good as life itself. It simply happens that tyrants, who rule by force rather
than the rule of law, *always* hate the thought of weapons in the hands of
those they terrorize.

In Frederic Bastiat's (1801-1858) classic treatise "The Law" we read:
"We hold from God the gift which includes all others. This gift is life. .
.But life cannot maintain itself alone. The Creator of life has entrusted us
with the responsibility of *preserving*, developing, and perfecting it...
Each of us has a natural right -- from God -- to defend his person, his
liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life,
and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the
preservation of the other two... If every person has the right to defend --
even by *force* -- his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows
that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to
protect these rights constantly." (emphasis mine)

Bastiat was French, not American, but he would have thought one insane
that said that *some* guns should be illegal because they could be used to
kill men. Of course weapons can be used to kill. The Bible is filled with the
call for men to defend themselves, their families and their neighbors. And
should we say "But that's the Old Testament!" (as if it mattered) then the
New Testament can easilly be consulted as well. When Peter pulled his sword
to defend Jesus we do not hear Jesus say "Peter, where did you obtain that
assault weapon?!" Granted, Peter was wrong in the circumstance (Jesus, for
our sake, wanted to give His life) but not in principle. But we get a glimpse
into the customs of these men from this incident: they were not a band of
defenseless wimps as they are so often portrayed. Was it not our Lord who
said "...and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."?
(Luke 22:36) Regardless, somehow liberal thinkers proclaims that, in some
mysterious way, if people and nations are defensless, they will be safer.
They then proceed to disarm everyone in hopes that corrupt and immoral men
will comply as well, and then there will be "peace on
earth".

Of course, the fact that people may properly own the means of their
defense, does not give them the right to use those means to do others harm.
Obviously, that would not be biblical. Some others would say, "Only the
police (government) should have guns!" But apart from the fact that such
condition leads inevitably to tyranny, it also has not, and cannot, work.
Check, for instance, the statistical probability that a policeman will
*prevent* a crime from occuring. Take rape, for instance: less than 1% of
rapists are aprehended during the commission of their crime. Rather, the
policeman investigates the crime *after the fact* and attempts to apprehend
the offender. Little help there for the victim.

To return, the liberal dream of one-world government over defenseless
people is just that -- a dream. God has said that there will be *one*
government, but it will not be the heaven-on-earth envisioned by
utopia-promoting tyrant wannabes who openly defy God and arrange societies
according to their own thoughts. And those candidates that advocate such
programs as Bob Dole has supported, are not friends of the family, since they
have spent their careers working against the family's most basic interests as
well as the will of the God who ordained families and government.

***

THE CHATTERBOX
[DELIVERED] (Mode: Normal)
Message # 1019 - Wed Oct 31 08:55:47 1990

From: NANETTE NEWELL (Teddy, Kimber)
To: DAVID TREIBS
Subject: guns
A reply to # 986
---------------------------------------
David,
I don't know what the Bible says about guns ........I know that in my
heart...that God has not given me peace about guns in the real world....
I don't have any problem with guns for killing animals...that we need for
food...ie. deer....birds....whatever..... I think that they are fine...
feel like this was all a part of God's plan of provision for us.....
I do have a problem with guns in our homes, the Bible says thou shalt not
kill........ I believe this goes for abortion......capital punishment......or
self defense.......
I believe that God is the giver and taker of life....
I believe that He is the judge......
I believe that He is my deliverer from all evil (or harm that may come).
I believe in my gaurdian angels that God has provided to watch over me.
I trust in His love for me that it is perfect! and that He will take care
of me...He called me to minister peace...and encouragement....I believe also
that He has started a work......and that He will complete it......
I do not think that God needs guns to defend His children......
Well....there is my heart....take and keep it!.... :)
God Bless You.... and thanks again for all you have
done!!!!!!....Nan

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(c) November 4, 1995, May 31, 1996 David C. Treibs. All rights reserved.