God and Guns: The Bible's Perspective on Personal Ownership and Use of Weapons, and Related Matters

God's sword (the Word) and ours (the rifle), superimposed over the Bible.(c) 1996, 1997 David C. Treibs, sirdavid@ktc.com

This page contains verse by verse commentary for Jeremiah 21 - Ezekiel 14, detailing what the Bible says about owning and using guns.

Jeremiah 21:4-14
4-5 When God is against you, your weapons will be worthless, therefore,
make sure God is on your side.
7 Maybe "those that seek their life" is the same as the enemy, just
another way to say it.
11-12 Zedekiah was king of Judah who rebelled against the
Chaldeans--because he was evil--God allowed him to do something to be
wiped out, and/or didn't help him win in his struggle, see 2 Kings 23 or
thereabouts.
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In the midst of all this judgment God tells the house of David to:
execute judgment and deliver the oppressed out of the spoiler, not even
in the midst of God's fiercest judgment are we free to stop protecting
the helpless and oppressed. This was (see 2 Kings) after God had sent
Babylon once and wiped them out, then Zedekiah rebelled and they were
doubly wiped out and destroyed.
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Of course, all the good or neutral people who wanted nothing to do with
Zed's rebellion also suffered and were slaughtered, which says something
for being sure good leaders are in power, so you don't suffer from their
evil, which DOES happen. The innocent suffer from the wicked, even if
the wicked don't do it with their own hands. This is more evidence that
sin destroys the innocent, and the death that it brings forth harms not
only those directly involved in the sin, but also those who have nothing
to do with it whatsoever. That's why children suffer.
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If you don't deliver from the oppressor, God will wipe you out. It
doesn't say to stop oppressing, as if to say they were doing it
(although many were), it says stop the oppressor, meaning they weren't
doing it, but they were still responsible to protect the oppressed, to
stop the oppressor, to force their morality on the wicked. If they
didn't, God would punish them. It was the sin of omission, not
commission. Doing nothing to defend the oppressed is just as bad as
being the oppressor. It IS being the oppressor, indirectly. And, do it
in the morning, ASAP, the first thing you do. Make it a priority. "The
evil of your doings" seems to refer to not rescuing the innocent.
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4 Weapons aren't enough--we need God!
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12 "execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled"
This is the repentence that I have called (Kinda like the fast that
God called, to break yokes, etc)
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"lest my fury go out like fire"
If we don't put action to our prayers and faith and repentence, it won't
help. God's fury will be turned against us--faith without works is dead.
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REPENTENCE AND RESCUING--they always go hand in hand.

Jeremiah 21:12
Deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor.

Jeremiah 22:3-5
Same as above, 2 commands: First listed--deliver the spoiled. Second:
don't be a spoiler.
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The stranger, fatherless, widow, and the innocent we better rescue, and
also not touch them ourselves. If we do these things, God will bless us,
if not, he will wipe us out.
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--The innocent are destroyed.
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--We must rescue them.
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--We must not harm the innocent.
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If we don't do BOTH, we will become a desolation. Some people say, hey,
I don't hurt anyone, I'm a good person; but they don't do the first
part, which is to rescue the oppressed. It's also important to note that
while we are rescuing the spoiled, we must be careful not to do violence
to the stranger, etc. That's the same as doing no evil but not
rescuing--both bring about the harm and destruction of the innocent at
our hands.

Jeremiah 22:7
The armed wicked...not to be disarmed, but put away and destroyed and
removed--like God was going to do to Israel (** star pointing to
"Israel").

Jeremiah 22:13-19,21
I think this is a warning to the king--"woe to him" is woe to the king.
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13-14 Josiah reigned because he (15) did judgment and justice (as in the
previous passage) to the poor and helpless (15-16).
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16 To take up the cause of the poor and needy is to know God. The
liberals know that, but don't have the slightest idea how to help the
poor. They end up making things worse, because they do not apply God's
principles to the situations, and because they tend to want power from
the help they give.
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17 But, unlike Josiah, this king oppresses, is violent, sheds innocent
blood.
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The innocent are destroyed.
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16 "then it was well with him"
After you judge the cause of the poor and needy, then it will be well
with you. Action comes first, then God will bless. Don't expect God to
turn around the nation first and then you will start doing what's right.
The cost of doing what's right might be high, since the poor are being
oppressed by the wicked because the nation is full of wicked people, and
we have to fight against all those wicked people, and that might not be
pleasant.
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17 Defines the wicked and wicked behavior--what they do is for the
purpose of gratifying and accumulating for themselves. They shed
_innocent_ blood, they oppress, and in the above context, they are
violent. It is like David's "evil man"--the violence he commits is
designed to fulfill his covetousness, to shed innocent blood, and to
oppress (likely by preying on others, including us and the poor). We can
see that this is violence by a wicked person to accomplish wicked ends,
not righteous violence to accomplish righteous ends.

Jeremiah 22:9
Not because they didn't disarm the wicked or sign a UN treaty
outlawing nations from having weapons.
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===
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Don't contradict yourself--don't say it's repentance and weapons that
are good, but not evil and weapons that are bad.
It's not evil and weapons, but evil.
It is, good repentance and weapons, not just good repentance.
or if you do, justify it. (huh?)
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Actually I think it's righteousness and righteous deeds (Jer 22:3), and
in doing righteous deeds, we need weapons, wisdom, etc to do the job.
---
Doing evil does not require weapons, but doing good does require them
(?? oh??).
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Not really. We have to make due with what we have, and if we have none,
too bad, we have to rescue, etc anyway.
---
Doing evil with weapons does not make them bad, doing good with weapons
does not make them good.
---
It's not that the goodness or badness of them depends on who uses them
for what, perhaps it is they are tools--tools for good that can be used
also for evil (?)
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===

17 On the one hand, people will ask why do children suffer, etc (why are
the innocent destroyed), but then they might say that we don't have to
act because God will do what's necessary, we don't have to do much more
than pray, etc.
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18-19,21 Didn't say he should disarm, said since he won't repent, he
should be done away with. Certainly didn't say everyone should disarm
because he was evil.

Jeremiah 23:16-17,22
It is wrong to say the wicked will have peace (*17).
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17 There is no peace to the wicked.
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22
This is an excellent way to protect a nation, turn it to God and to
repentence.
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Part of doing God's word is to turn the wicked from their wickedness.
Wiping them out isn't always a solution (that isn't how God wanted to
turn his nation from wickedness, ie kill them all), although if they
refuse to repent, God might do that, and we might wipe out some trying
to rescue the innocent; but we have to remember, that's not our goal--**
our goal is to cause the wicked to repent ** !! That's also God's goal
and why he sends destruction upon them, to break their wills and cause
them to turn to him. Unfortunately, more often than not the wicked
harden their necks and refuse to repent.

Jeremiah 24:8-10
The armed, aggressive wicked are God's tool to punish the wicked nation
(but they, too, shall be punished for harming the innocent and
destroying God's people).

Jeremiah 25:12,14,16,27,29
The punisher who also destroys God's people will also be punished--by
the sword.
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12 There is never an excuse to harm the innocent, even if you are doing
"God's work," because even if that's the case, and it probably is just
delusional thinking on your part, God will punish you for what you did.
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16 Again the sword, ie, violence against them, not just the existence of
weapons--is punishment for sins.

Jeremiah 25:31
(*) God will give those who are wicked to the sword. The sword and
violence are both a divine punishment of God, and the natural
consequences of wickedness (perhaps God does nothing more than allow the
natural consequences of sin to take effect, and he stops helping the
punished to defend itself from stopping the evil that comes against
it) (when the wicked are increased, the land is full of wickedness).
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God doesn't say he will deal with the problem by disarming the wicked,
he says he will destroy them and punish them and send the sword against
them. That's what we ought to do to the wicked, not try to disarm them
(especially not by the convoluted method of disarming and punishing the
good), but by punishing and wiping them off the face of the earth.
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We also have to remember that when a land is full of sin and innocent
blood (like abortion, etc) we will not have peace (no peace to the
wicked). We will not be able to have peace because of God's divine
judgment and because wicked people don't deal with themselves properly,
and the wicked rule and lead the land into more sin.

Jeremiah 25:34-38
(38) Both God's anger and the oppressor are against the land--divine
judgment and natural consequences.
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"fierceness of the oppressor"
Tyranny requires repentence as well as resistance.

Jeremiah 26:3
The way to divert the sword and God's wrath is not to disarm everyone,
but to repent. It could also be turned around to say repent instead of
resist, but we already know we ahe to do the Lord's fast (break yokes),
and Jer 22:3 (do right by rescuing, don't sin, or could be taken to mean
stop sinning, ie repent, because if he has to tell them to not do it,
they must already be doing it or be tempted to do it), and exercise
faith by doing works of righteousness, etc.Then again, you also have to
put away wickedness (and do it in part by putting away the wicked), and
that isn't mentioned either.

Jeremiah 26:14
Innocent blood is borne by more than just the murderers--it is borne by
the city and even the nation and those who do not stop it, the innocent,
etc.

Jeremiah 27:8
God will use the king to do his will--just like he will use us to do his
will, but that doesn't mean whatever the king does is God's will, and
we're not going to slip back into Divine Right or Divine Rule or
whatever it was whereby the king thought he had God's permission to rule
and whatever he decided was unquestionable and unchallengable.
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Also, sword, famine, pestilence are God's punishments for rejecting him.
But not always. Sometimes these things just happen, and we have to fight
against them, and just because we serve God doesn't mean we will win
against them. God will be with us through the trouble and will help us,
but not necessarily help us to overcome everything.
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In this case God put them under a tyrant on purpose and anyone who
resisted, God was going to destroy (to put away their sins by putting
them away). Not that he doesn't do that today, but we have no way of
knowing when he does that--our job is to fight evil and defend the
innocent.

Jeremiah 27:13
Same list of punishments.

Jeremiah 27:9,14,16-17
Don't listen to those who falsely say what God says, listen to (read)
God's word and follow it, not the prophets who say things from their own
mouth.
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If you listen to them instead of God, you will suffer the
consequences--the land will be destroyed--by the multiplying and
unchecked wicked, the sins of the nation, and God's wrath.
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9 If a prophet is in the same company as diviners, dreamers, enchanters,
and sourcerers, you better check him out! If you listen to such advice,
you are in trouble!

Jeremiah 28:15-16
If you tell people things that God says which he didn't say, and make
them trust in things that are false, God will punish you, and the whole
nation will suffer because they didn't do what God wanted.
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Those who go around (like Clinton and his crime bill) and say it is
God's will that the good be disarmed will cause the nation to suffer,
because the bad consequences will come upon the whole nation, because
they believe lies. Also, God will deal with those people for spreading
like in his name and saying he said things he didn't.
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Again, the people should have done what they should do now, instead of
stupidly saying amen to whatever the prophets say, they should look to
God's word, at the very least to see what are the general principles
about which the prophets speak. That is what this book is trying to do.
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Someone believes a lie. They spread it around to to others. Others
believe is and practice it. It spreads throughout society--not
necessarily everyone, but enough--and becomes widely practiced. The
consequences of the lie begin to occur. The nation crumbles a
little.

Jeremiah 29:15-19
More divine judgment--sword, famine, pestilence because they didn't
repent.
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19 Destruction by sword, etc comes from not listening to God's word.

Jeremiah 32:3-5
When God's had enough of sin, he will fight against you and you won't
stand against the enemy.

Jeremiah 36:3,7
Repent.
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3 The evil and destruction is to bring them to repentence. God first
told them what he was going to do so they would have a chance to repent.
We today have God's word and we know what it says. We will recieve no
special communications from God, because it's all already been
communicated to us, what is required, what will happen if we don't. If
our nation persists in sin, the destruction we are suffering will not
only continue unabated, but will increase until we are destroyed.

Jeremiah 36:19,26
Hiding is a low level defense--no force required against the enemy--God
blessed their hiding and made it work--kept them hidden.

Jeremiah 37:10
It doesn't matter how well armed you are or how poorly armed the enemy
is--even if they had taken all their weapons and wiped them out all but
1 man, and wounded him, God would have enabled that 1 man to carry out
God's judgment against the city. Fighting and killing the enemy and
criminals won't reduce the problems if they are caused by God's
judgment. In that case, the action needs to be coupled with repentance.
In some cases, the action is repentance, because it is turning away from
that which angers God, it is dealing with the wicked, protecting the
innocent, etc.

Jeremiah 39:1-2,8-9,11-12,16-18
1-2 The wicked and the righteous and the innocent all were all
were taken captive, all suffered from the famine, many were killed.
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8 Their houses were burned (from 1-2), their protection was removed.
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9 They were taken captive (from 1-2).
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11-12 Jeremiah was treated well, after the seige was over.
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16-18 This guy, too, has God's promise of protection, but he was still a
captive, even though he was a believer and follower of God, he suffered
too because of the sins of others.

Jeremiah 40:4-5
He was probably the only one given this liberty.

Jeremiah 44:2-3
The land was destroyed because of the wickedness, and the refusal to
repent and obey God.

Jeremiah 44:4-30
More of the same--the evil people reveal their wickedness, which brings
on more destruction, including of the innocent children and those who
are guilty of nothing more than rejecting God.
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7 This evil will bring destruction to the most innocent of
innocent--child and suckling.
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10 They are like the people of Revelation, and like many today, they
will not repent even though they are seeing destruction--it hardens them
more and more.
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12 The least to the greatest will suffer violence, because of sin. No
one, innocent, believer, or otherwise, will be exempted.
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18 Here is a perfect example of twisting statistics to prove a lie.
Also, here's how a liberal would justify evil laws and deeds by saying
that bad things happen if they don't do it.

Jeremiah 46:14-15
Prepare for war and strengthen yourself, but for no use, because God is
against you.
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15 When you cannot stop the enemy it is time to stop and ask yourself
why, and see if there is sin in the camp, and seek his face, his
strength (Amos), his mercy, his forgiveness, and his help, and his
victory.

Jeremiah 46:15-16
God is involved in the war, and he generally uses people when he is
involved, whether it be wicked kings or the righteous, them he uses to
accomplish his will. Of course, he can even use the devil to fulfill his
will, so don't think it too big a deal if God uses you in some way, be
sure most of all that you are in good standing with him first, , and
that what you are doing is not contrary to his word, and then it is a
good deal if God uses you.

Jeremiah 47:6-7
God was involved in the war. (Did he work through someone, or do it all
by himself?)

Jeremiah 48:10
God pronounced judgment and destruction against Moab.

Jeremiah 48:10
When God commands use of the sword, he curses those who fail to obey. If we
fail to use the sword to protect our families, we are worse than
infidels.

Jeremiah 48:42
One of the reasons for which God destroys a nation--that's one reason
why the righteous need to stay in power and influential positions, to
lead it in the right way.
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When we are strong, we must keep ourselves humbled before God.

Jeremiah 49:16
Doesn't matter how strong you are if God is against you.
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Some might take this and say, well, it doesn't matter how strong you
are, God can use you in any case, so you don't even have to try to be
strong, because God can use whatever you have. While that is true to
some extent that God can use whatever you have, you also have to be
wise and see the evil afar off and prepare yourself. And God expects you
to live in this physical world and reap and sow--deal with physical
problems on a physical level--ie meet a challenge with whatever
necessary to overcome it physically, instead of just making a token,
halp-hearted, sloppy effort and expect that God will make up the
difference between your laziness or unpreparedness and the thread,
humbly hoping God will give you good success in your endeavor; not just
sitting around and expecting God to do it all for you.

Jeremiah 50:7
Destroying God's people Israel is wrong even if they sinned. This could
be twisted to say it is always sinful to kill any of God's people, even
when they sin (as in self-defense), but that's not right, because God
gave the death penalty for various sins of his people without any curse
to the revenger of blood.
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I think this is against the heathen nations that destroy God's people
not according to his law (give them a trial to see if they are guilty,
then put the guilty to death, not the innocent. Whoever lumps the
innocent in with the guilty is in big trouble.), not for any good reason
(other than they are God's judgment against his people) like defense or
cap pun, which God doesn't hold the blood against the killer.

Jeremiah 50:14
No warning here to those who destroy Babylon, because they are not his
nation.
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I suppose the focus of the destruction of Babylon is on the wicked who
make Babylon an evil place, and the innocent folks there are just out of
luck, they will take it on the chin like the wicked. That's partly the
result of living in an evil world--the innocent are destroyed, and
partly the consequence of allowing evil to be in control--you suffer
whatever punishment comes upon the evil, perhaps in part for allowing
it.

Jeremiah 50:16
Oppressing sword again is God's judgment against Babylon.

Jeremiah 50:24
Babylon strove against God, that's why it's being destroyed, like the
heathen who rage in Psalm 5 (? or thereabouts), and the
Libertarian/anarchist types who like their RTKBA and free enterprise but
tell God to take a hike and say "we will not have this man to rule over
us, and yell, scream, hollar, and foam about God's rules, or those who
call themselves Christians or God-fearing and yet persist in sin.

Jeremiah 51:11
But God doesn't (does he?) call for judgment against the Medes for
destroying Babylon because Babylon is not his nation?
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If you do God's work, you better not do it against his word or against
his people, or he will clobber you next.

Jeremiah 51:12-13
When God is against you, make yourself strong, but it won't help,
because you will be wiped out.

Jeremiah 51:20-23
Is this Babylon he's talking about?

Jeremiah 51:25
He doesn't destroy just those biblically OK to destroy, he wipes them
all out.

Jeremiah 51:35-36
God will take vengeance for his people's blood.

Jeremiah 51:53
No amount of weapons can help when God is against you. Ask the armies at
the end of Revelation.

Jeremiah 51:56
God doesn't say he will disarm Babylon (actually, it IS one of God's
judgments to disarm a people, and then they will be vulnerable to their
oppressors, which are naturally occurring enough), he says he will
hinder their fighting and their weapons, and he will destroy
the people--that's what we ought to do as a nation to our wicked.

Jeremiah 52:14
The enemy took away that which kept out the enemy and which protected
them somewhat. Left them vulnerable to whomever came along. Of course
they (the walls) couldn't stop the great army of Babylon, but also now
they couldn't stop anything, from robbers to small bands of enemy, etc.
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Definition of the enemy:
It is the nature of the enemy and of the evil to remove the defenses of
the people, no matter how passive those means are.
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You can put this in with the verses for gun control--the people are
stripped by the enemy of at least some of their defenses. It is in their
nature to do this. You could even call this a definition of the
wicked (or better, a definition of the enemy)--they destroy the means to
resist them, and in so doing, also destroy or lessen the ability to
resist criminals, mauraders, other invaders, etc.
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So it follows the definition that anyone who disables your ability to
resist them is your enemy--like the feds who want to disarm us, make
sure we can't and don't make bombs (fertilizer laws, etc), make sure we
can't communicate securely by outlawing encryption, etc--they wish us to
be completely open and transparent and vulnerable to them.

Jeremiah 52:25-27
Completely destroyed their ability to muster a defense.
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He left alone only those who would give him the fruits and products of
the land 52:16, like Bill C., wo leaves alone anyone who faithfully and
without resistance gives him their share of their wealth.
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Another definition of the enemy. Destroy the ability to organize into
armed groups for defense or resistance to them, ie, the enemy.

Lamentations 1:8-9
The nation was destroyed because of their wickedness and sin, not
because of objects.
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He is a righteous man, yet he is suffering because of the sins of
others. The innocent suffer and are destroyed because of others.
Christians suffer because of the sins of others, Lot
notwithstanding.

Lamentations 1:12-13
He suffers greatly even though he's innocent, and in fact he tried to
turn the people away from their wickedness, and he tried to save the
nation from destruction. Too bad, he's suffering with the rest of
them.

Lamentations 2:11-12,19-21
The innocent suffer for the sins of others, that is the nature of
sin--it harms more than just those involved in the sin. Sometimes it
almost seems that destroying and harming and spoiling the innocent is
the GOAL of sin, not just a coincidental happenstance. Evil child
molesters target innocent children. Murders target harmless people.
Thieves target old and feeble people, etc. Change agents seek to corrupt
innocents minds in government schools.

Lamentations 3:1-19
But Jeremiah was a righteous man and a servant of God, yet he suffers greatly
for the sins of his nation. Christians are not exempt from suffering
from the sins of others either.
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12, 13 God's weapons--figurative in this case, I think.

Lamentations 4:4,6,10-11
The innocent suffer and are destroyed.

Lamentations 4:13
Because of the sins of the prophets, the people believed lies and
wouldn't repent, and that brought in destruction, which includes the
destruction of the just.
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The just are destroyed because of the sins of others, because of God's
judgment against an evil nation. One of the biggest sins was by
Manassah, who filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, which the LORD would
not pardon.
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Our nation has shed even more innocent blood. We have probably killed
more babies than the entire population of Israel and Judah. What is in
store for us? It has to be worse than what Lamentations records. And, we
the "just" who stood by while all this was happening will not be exempt
from that suffering and judgment! We knew it was happening (we cannot
claim that our eyes did not see the murder). We stood by
while it was happening (like whomever it was that stood by while Israel
was being destroyed). Some of us even helped the enemy (like Bill Price
who applauds those Christians who gave money to abortionists because
other Christians were trying to stop those abortionists from their
sins. Perhaps he reads Jesus saying to be: slaughter the little children
and send them to me, and forbid them not, for all such will end up in
the kingdom of God).
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Perhaps the righteous were not the salt and light they were supposed to
be, partially because righteousness was not passed down to the children,
and therefore the evil of society grew so great that the sin of the
society grew so great that the natural consequences of all that sin were
so powerful, plus God's anger was so much, that it brought on the
incredible destruction described in Lamentations, and the few righteous
left could not turn the tide of the sin, and so could not stave off the
consequences (reap/sow).

Lamentations 5:9-14,16,22
Destruction and suffering of the innocent because of sin.

Ezekiel 2:7
We have to do what God commands us whether or not our efforts bring the
desired result (or perhaps, whether or not we see the result), whether
it's warning the nation of sin and repentance or standing against wrong
and for good or defending the innocent, etc.

Ezekiel 3:11
Same as 2:7

Ezekiel 3:17-21
Even the destruction of the wicked from God's wrath will be held against
us in certain cases, just because the destruction is caused by God's
wrath, that doesn't let us off the hook to do what we can to keep them
from the destruction and protect them.
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Just like the watchman must warn the wicked people when God sends bands
of destroyers to punish them for their sins, if he doesn't do his job,
he is guilty and God holds him responsible.
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Similarly, God sends evil nations against Israel to punish it for it's
sins, but what the punishing nation does is still a sin, and God will in
turn punish them. Their sin is commission, destroying the good by doing
evil. Likewise, when the consequences of sin catch up with a nation and
that nation is being destroyed because of it's evil, perhaps we are not
doing it, but if we do not step in to try to help those being destroyed,
we are just as guilty, because of what we do or don't do, we destroy
the good. Our sin is omission, but the results are the same, the evil
destroy the good.
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Disarming the good, or preventing them from arming themselves, or
preventing them from arming themselves adequately, so they are harmed or
destroyed by the evil, is no different than doing the harming, and will
bring God's wrath either way. If you rape a woman, or tie up her husband
so someone else can rape her, what's the difference? If you kill a
police man, or take his gun in a dark alley so someone else can do it,
what's the difference? There might be a difference in intent, you took
his gun so everyone would be safe, and not so someone could murder him,
but the results were the same, a dead policeman because of your doing.
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If you are incapable of seeing the whole picture, I don't think that
excuses you. Anti-gunners can't see the whole picture. They only see the
harm that is done with guns. They don't see the good. I don't think that
excuses them from the destruction they cause. They accidentally destroy
the innocent. Or do they?
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Perhaps the see only part of it because of their viewpoint. They see
something worse than the destruction of the innocent, they see violence
as worse than destruction. They are better red than dead.
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From their socialist viewpoint, individuals do not have the right to
defend themselves. Perhaps it is because they do not see a clear cut
difference between good and evil, righteousness and wickedness, innocent
and guilty, etc. I can't quite say what is percolating in my head. Their
view of the individual and of force (I suppose as long as it is someone
else who is the victim of crime) are cockeyed enough that ... I don't
know.
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They don't want anyone to have power over anyone else. They want us all
to be disarmed. Some of them want to emasculate the men, the military,
the police, etc. It's not that they have no regard for the individual
whatsoever, they want the individual to say or paint or do anything he
wants, sexual or whatever. It's that old adage, you can do whatever you
want as long as you don't hurt anyone, just like that saying from Wicca
which is about the same. (Kinda interesting that they use almost
verbatim philosophy as is found in witchcraft) I think basically they
don't want anyone to force anything on anyone else, morals, rules, and
even violence. You do that by making all religions equal, no one can
promote theirs above anyone else's (of course, some are more equal than
others and can walk upright, like Secular Humanism).
%
Perhaps it is kinda an elitist notion that most of us are to be down
here doing our own thing, pursuing our interests, and absolutely
whatever we want, as long as we don't harm anyone, and the only one
allowed to force anything--make sure (enFORCE that we) we don't force
our religion on anyone, make sure (enFORCE that we) we don't force
anything economic or sexual or violent (the s&m-ers can do whatever they
want, because it's voluntary) or racial (the blacks can call themselves
niggers, but we can't mention the word) or political ideology (the PC
elites have to make sure we don't violate that one and force anything on
anyone)--are those up there who make sure we do what is right, or maybe
better, what is left, and they can use whatever force necessary to take
care of everyone and make sure everyone has their rights untrampled.
%
The problem is, all the above paragraph is just a smoke screen to enforce
leftist values and make sure no rightist values exist and certainly to
make sure they are not propagated.
%
Song of Solomon (huh?) we come back to the beginning of the circle, it is
their values. But WHY do they think that? They don't see the harm in
porno or music or alcohol, or if they see the harm, they consider it
abuse of a good thing, and they see good uses from them, or at least a
right to them, that outweighs any harm. Perhaps because each of these
contain indulgences they enjoy. They find no indulgence in guns, no fun
use. They find no benefit from guns, not being the owners of any. They
find no use for guns, not having been around any to see any good use.
All they see, from TV, criminals mugging them, the newspaper, is misuse
of guns, and so their reaction to them is fear and the urge to be
protected from guns by doing away with them. Perhaps one of their
problems is wanting to be protected from any harm and not wanting to
take responsibility for their own protection. Maybe you could call that
irresponsibility in self-preservation, but that also extends to
protecting others, even their families, which they surrender to gov't.
They surrender their responsibility in this area. They surrender their
responsibility to feed and clothe the poor, to raise their children, to
teach their children, to run the economy (socialism, the Federal
Reserve, etc), to administer health care, etc to gov't.
%
They tell women to not resist rape, except maybe to run away or avoid
bad places, no one should resist burglary, robbery, car jackings, etc,
but say give them what they want and don't resist except to call the
police. They say no property is worth your life, but don't seem to
include in their thinking that if you don't have the means to protect
yourself you are putting your fate in the hands of someone who is
harming you.
%
There seems to be an awful lot of pacifism. Where does it come from?
Dunno.
%
In Germany the good of the individual was surrendered for the good of
the state. Whenever the good of the state and the good of the individual
conflicted, the good of the individual took a back seat. If individuals were
set back, it didn't matter as long as the state was not set back. Arms
could be used against the state, so these were not allowed, except for
those who were special to the state, ie who would not use weapons
against the state, but would use them for the state. Anyone who would be
neutral in their use would be disarmed, only those using their arms
positively for the state were allowed. If individuals were harmed by
criminals, that was bad, but that was not so bad that those individuals
would be given a tool that could be possibly used against the state,
which in today's lingo might be termed "the good of the whole," or even
"the good for the majority," which might be interchangeable terms with
the word "state." I think the socialist component of anti-gun is close
to the heart of the matter, although it's not too clear to me yet.
%
Only the state had the right to use force, because that was something
exercised by very important entities, by entities that had absolute
rights to be over other, lesser entities. Individuals were lesser.
The state was greater. Individuals did not have rights, inalienable or
otherwise, just privileges granted for the benefit of the state. The
state did have inalienable rights, and whatever it did was right, and
anyone opposed to it was wrong. The state and the individual were not
equal. They didn't have any special standing with anyone--not given
inalienable rights by God, not special to God separate from their
existence as part of the State. They didn't really have any meaning in
their existence except as a part of the state. Apart from that, their
existence was meaningless. I don't think anti-gunners take it this far,
but they do have a thing about the individual exercising force that they
don't have about the state, because of some difference, probably related
to this socialist mumbo. They don't believe in God-given inalienable
rights, at least not from the Bible's perspective.

Ezekiel 7:11
Violence has become a tool of punishment?
Violence is part of wickedness? The violence they practiced has resulted
in a rod of wickedness that will punish them?
I don't know what it means.
%
VIOLENCE--a word to add to the weapon list.

Ezekiel 7:23
God isn't pleased when a land is full of violence. This is obviously the
bad kind, wherein the innocent are harmed.
%
Good people do not go around committing violence for no reason. When the
land if full of violence, it is because the nation is full of evil
people who do evil, violent acts.

Ezekiel 7:25
There is no peace for the wicked or for the wicked nation.

Ezekiel 8:17
The wicked and ungodly have filled the land with violence--The wicked do
violence, not the just! God is angry at the violence of the wicked, not
the self-defense of the just as is borne out by every example of the
just using force to defend themselves and others.

Ezekiel 9:1-2
God's angels use slaughter weapons to do God's will.

Ezekiel 9:1-2
Angels armed with slaughter weapons. Would make a nice picture to show angels
armed with swords, clubs, maces, and a Galil and a Glock or two. Or show
angels with swords and us with guns.
%
God has weapons and angels have weapons, meaning they couldn't be
inherently evil--or they would have nothing to do with them.

Ezekiel 9:4-6
In this instance all those seeking passionately for God were spared
their lives, but not the loss of loved ones, and the loss of their city,
and perhaps captivity, and possibly the loss of all their possessions
when the enemy invaded, and maybe they were all raped, etc.

Ezekiel 9:7
God gave the command to slaughter the wicked. There must be at least some
instances where killing is not evil, because God would not make his children
do something evil.
%
Actually, these were angels. There is somewhat of a different standard
between us and them. We can't go around killing people because God told
us--because he doesn't tell us that stuff. When we kill, it is only
under the circumstances he has outlined already--and this is not it--we
are not allowed to punish or destroy people in this way (in self-defense
or capital punishment related matters, yes). Those people who are used
of God to destroy in this way are themselves punished and destroyed by
God for harming the innocent, etc.

Ezekiel 9:9
When a land is full of innocent blood, it brings God's wrath--even
though Ezekiel pleaded with God, it wasn't enough, although God spared
those who were pleading in this instance.

Ezekiel 11:5-10
The city is full of murdered people, therefore God's wrath is coming--he
will bring a sword against the city and captivity.
%
When a land or city is full of innocent blood, it brings God's
destruction (this fits under: innocent blood brings God's wrath, if the
godly don't stop it they will also suffer, the righteous will be
destroyed with the wicked, we must stop the destruction of the innocent
or we will suffer God's destruction). amd everybody suffers, even if God
makes us a way of escape, and more innocent are destroyed, etc. Part of
us exercising defense for ourselves, families, and country is to stave
off this destruction by seeking God's mercy and also by putting works to
our faith--by stopping the destruction of the innocent so God's
destruction (and the natural consequences of this sin: people are
hardened to it, begin to practice it themselves, if they aren't
motivated to protect the most innocent, they won't be motivated or be
empathetic to any suffereing of any sort, if a mother can be convinced
to kill her baby, she can be convinced of any evil, etc) don't happen
and destroy us, our nation, our ability to spread the gospel to other
nations because of the prosperity and stability of our nation, etc.
%
16 "yet will I be to them as a little sactuary"
But not much of one.

Ezekiel 11:16-18,21
All of them will go into captivity? But some will return and be blessed
and have their hearts changed, except those who walk after "detestable
things," who will be destroyed.
%
19 God does not like a land to be full of violence. If you love your
country, try to stop it.
%
19 I think violence here means the harm and destruction of the innocent
and helpless, etc.
%
21 Here it's clear that they will reap the consequences of their sins,
which is destruction to them and the nation. Another way to defend the
nation is to put away the evil doers so they don't sin and bring
destruction to all of us and our country.

Ezekiel 13:5
God is angry at those who don't stand in the gap or make up the hedge
(means of protection) for their people and their nation. We have a
responsibility to do whatever it takes to protect our nation and the
innocent within it.
%
"the day of the Lord" is obviously the day of judgment, when they will
be wiped out for their sins--probably by invading armies, sword, famine,
pestilence.
%
Even in the "day of the Lord"--is that the day of God's judgment and
wrath?--we have to stand in the battle? This was about the lying
prophets who did not stand in the gap for their nation--instead they
told lies, and didn't lead the people to repent and seek and serve God,
they told them lies, and the people comforted themselves with these lies
and didn't feel any urgency to turn from their sins to avoid God's wrath
and judgment--and so God's destruction came--and in this way the
prophets failed to stand up for their nation in the day of
battle--because there was no repentence or submission to God, which
might have brought God's mercy and have given them some rescuing or
victory in the battle. It is obviously about more than just successfully
swinging a sword--it is about having God's help and staving off his
destruction--but--I think it could be part of the verses about fighting
when it's time to fight and let people know they have to stand in the
battle as well as stand for righteousness and against sin before the
battle.
%
Maybe he's saying they led Israel astray and that brought in the
judgment--ie, the enemy, and now that they brought them in, they are not
trying to stop and fight against them to protect Israel--ie, make up the
gaps in the wall and fight in the battle.
%
Maybe he's saying they didn't ell the truth, which would have been
standing in the gap and fighting in the battle--because it might have
kept Israel from going so far astray that the enemy had to come in.
%
I think this is close. Two ideas are presented here: 1. the prophets did
not tell the truth, 2. they did not stand in the gaps or the battle.
%
We can conclude several things: It is wrong to be a lying prophet--in
fact, it is a gross evil--since #2 is compared to it, it is also grossly
evil to not stand in the gap (defense, although not necessarily passive,
because if there's a hole in the wall and you have to stand there to
keep the enemy out, you will have to do a heck of a lot of fighting,
because much of the enemy's forces will concentrate on breaching these
weakest parts of the defense and so you must do the fiercest and most
ferocious fighting there).
%
By lying and decieving Israel, they did not help them any when they most
needed it--they needed to repent, and they needed someone to tell them
and to lead the way to repentence, but the prophets did not, and so
figuratively they did not stand in the gap for Israel, but also
literally when the judgment, ie, sword, came, neither did they stand in
the literal gaps.
%
This also ties together 2 ideas--repentence and fighting off an attack:
the two are compared indirectly:
literally: the nation was supposed to repent and the prophets lead them
in it and to it;
figuratively: the nation--once the judgment fell--was supposed to defend
itself, and the prophets lead them in it and lead them to battle.
%
When 2 ideas are compared like this, each idea sheds light on the other
as to the character of each, and the moral appropriateness, etc. This is
one way the people came to understand things: God compared what they
were doing or what they should have done to things that were understood
by all of them and which they could relate to, like Jesus did when he
told his parables. Since repentence is excellent, so is fighting of this
type.
%
Actually this comparison is the other way around--the assumption is the
prophets know how utterly evil it is to not stand and fight when the
city and nation are under attack--and he compares this known gross evil
to the similar evil of lying to Israel--to try to show them the
heinousness of their sins, to try to show them the great destruction
caused to the nation, the city, and the people by their sin.

People these days are rather the other way around: they are in the dark
about the moral appropriateness of fighting, but they know for sure that
not repenting and lying are terrible evils, and so for us the analogy
works in reverse, but it is just as valid in either direction.

Ezekiel 13:10
No peace for the wicked (those who break God's law, harm the innocent,
sin, etc) or for those who do things that will supposedly bring peace,
but not according to God's will--the lying prophets did this.
%
Each one had a hand in leading the nation astray--perhaps the wall is a
false sense of security they gave Israel by making them trust in
something (peace: wall) that could not stand when a nation does not
follow after God, they will not have peace no matter what they do, guns
or no guns.

Ezekiel 13:15-16
No peace, and those who say there will be peace anger God.

Ezekiel 13:18-19
It is wrong to keep alive those who should die, and to kill those who
should live.
%
18 It is wrong to have anything to do with evil--they didn't hunt souls,
but they did something for those who did (???did they?).
%
19 Liberals are pretty good at this--they disarm the innocent so they
can be killed--and don't punish by death or imprisonment those criminals
who should be, and allow those criminals to cause more destruction to
the innocent.

Ezekiel 13:22
Don't strengthen the hand of the wicked, don't make it easy and possible
to commit evil, to harm the innocent, to continue in his evil ways, to
save his life when he should die.
%
In the case of the prophets, they told lies which helped the evil and
saddened the righteous, but there are other ways to strengthen the
wicked and weaken the righteous. Legislators can pass laws that do this.
Spokeswomen for groups (Sarah Brady) can tell lies that do the same.
Libertarians can scoff at God's word even though they might agree with
the part about being armed and defending the innocent, but what they
don't see is that the sin they defend brings about a great deal of
destruction, and also brings about the tyrants who do the things they
don't like.
%
Don't turn him from God's word and the judgment it warns about and the
repentence it requires of him.

Ezekiel 14:17-21
Even the most righteous will not always be protected in their family if
their family is wicked. In this case they would have lost their entire
family, and that is not what most people consider being protected by
God.
%
When a land is so completely full of wickedness like Israel was, even
having righteous people in it will not help--the only cure is
repentence. What did God chide them for most? Idolatry, forsaking him,
and shedding innocent blood. We must 1. turn to God, 1a. repent of
innocent blood, 2. Stop the shedding of innocent blood, 2a. deal with
those who shed it.

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(c) November 4, 1995, May 31, 1996 David C. Treibs. All rights reserved.

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